Oral History with Ellison A. Smyth, March 5, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Today is March 5, 1991. I’m conducting an interview with Ellison Smyth of Blacksburg, Virginia. Mr. Smyth, can you give us a brief biographical sketch of your life? Your birthdate, birthplace-
Ellison Smyth: I was born on the VPI [Virginia Polytechnic Institute] campus in October 1903, the son of Dr. Ellison Adger Smyth, Jr. of Charleston, South Carolina who came here with Dr. [John McLaren] McBryde to found the biology department in 1891. My first twenty-one years were spent on the VPI campus. I was graduated from VPI in electrical engineering in 1925 and worked for the General Electric Company in Schenectady and Erie, Pennsylvania and in Philadelphia before seeing the light and not being able to escape the hound of heaven who pursued me into the ministry of the Presbyterian Church. I studied at Richmond for three years-
Michael Cooke: At what school?
Ellison Smyth: The Union Theological Seminar and then took graduate work at the University of Edinburgh in Theology, the Mecca of Presbyterian scholars. Then returned to this country in the middle of the Depression as pastor of a newly organized Presbyterian church in Nitro, West Virginia composed of sixty members who bragged that they were spit backs from the Southern Baptist Church and the Southern Methodist Church. Neither church in which they felt at home. I did a lot of work there with young people and in the community for three years and when they couldn’t stand me any longer and I couldn’t stand them any longer, Dr. Murray of Lexington, Virginia, of a Presbyterian Church, called me to head up the student’s work at VMI [Virginia Military Institute] and Washington and Lee [University] for the Presbyterian Church. You think that’s enough?

Keywords: biology department; birth place; birthdate; Dr. Ellison Adger Smith, Jr.; Dr. John McLaren McBryde; electrical engineering; Erie, Pennsylvania; General Electric Company; Lexington, Virginia; Nitro, West Virginia; Presbyterian Church; Richmond, Virginia; Schenectady, Pennsylvania; Southern Baptist Church; Southern Methodist Church; Union Theological Seminar; University of Edinburgh; Virginia Military Institute; Virginia Polytechnic Institute; VMI; VPI; Washington and Lee University

Subjects: Blacksburg (Va.); Engineering; Presbyterian Church; Virginia Polytechnic Institute

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: That’s quite a lot. How did you end up eventually in the Blacksburg area? When did you first come here?
Ellison Smyth: Well, I served in Lexington, [Virginia] for four years, got a master’s degree in history, the history of Presbyterianism in Rockbridge County. And then served in Warrenton, Virginia for two years in the horse racing country where I did not feel at home. And the church in Hartsville, South Carolina where we had friends called me as pastor in 1941, at the time of the outbreak of the war. We stayed there for seven years, and then I was called back to Blacksburg as pastor of the church. Enough time had elapsed since my youth there for a lot of people to forget a lot of things. We had a very happy pastorate there for all together twenty-one years, which was the longest pastorate that they’ve ever stood a minister in a Presbyterian Church.
Michael Cooke: Ever stood? [Laughs].
Ellison Smyth: We owned a home there in a very attractive neighborhood in the woods. We raised four children. The oldest is a pastor of a Presbyterian Church between Davidson, North Carolina and Charlotte, [North Carolina]. The youngest has a camera store in the middle of Charlotte. The oldest girl married a Presbyterian minister, a scholar of Arabic and Hebrew who teaches in the theological school in Vancouver, Canada for the last sixteen years or so. The youngest girl married J. Michael Brown, a doctor, who is dean of the business school at West Kentucky University. And that’s the end of that.

Keywords: Blacksburg area; Charlotte, North Carolina; Davidson, North Carolina; Hartsville, South Carolina; Lexington, Virginia; master's degree; Michael Brown; Presbyterian Church; Presbyterianism; Rockbridge County; Warrenton, Virginia; West Kentucky University

Subjects: Pastor; Presbyterian Church

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay. Would you talk about your upbringing as a child in Blacksburg? In terms of how would you describe race relations? Did you have any significant contact with Blacks growing up in this area?
Ellison Smyth: Mamma, my mother, being from Charleston, did not feel that the house was really established unless there was a Black face in the kitchen. Domestics, that was the place for a Black woman to be. A Black man, farm work, painting, carpentry, any make-shift job that you could get. There were not many Blacks in Blacksburg. Out Nellies Cave Road, the Mills family and Hagerson, a [6:19] kinfolk to them, very fine Black family. In town there were a few Blacks living up Bitter Hill-
Michael Cooke: Bitter Hill?
Ellison Smyth: Bitter Hill, the oldest section in town.
Michael Cooke: Which is now...What’s the name of the street?
Ellison Smyth: Off Lee Street. Bitter Hill. On the campus, us kids, they called us the Faculty Fumblers when we played football.
Michael Cooke: The Faculty Fumblers?
Ellison Smyth: The Faculty Fumblers. We always fumbled the ball. But I played opposite Booker T. Washington who chewed real tobacco. We were allowed to chew licorice and spit what looked like tobacco, but we couldn’t chew real tobacco. But Booker T. Washington chewed real tobacco, and he played opposite me, right tackle. And he lubricated the grass in front of me with real tobacco juice, and I didn’t like to roll in that. Anybody who passed by was free to join in the football games. We played [inaudible 7:23] Flats. We played Bitter Hill, and they always beat us. But, it was a lot of fun. Sometimes even college students passing by from the Aggie [Agnew] Hall would stop, can we play too? And they would choose up sides.
Michael Cooke: Was this flag football, or tag football, or was this tackle football?
Ellison Smyth: No, we played rough football.
Michael Cooke: Oh, it was rough football?
Ellison Smyth: Yeah, yeah. But about the only contact we had and pretty much it was viewed that Blacks were domestics. We had one very fine family, the Rollins family. Mr. Rollins worked on the Smithfield Farm, and his wife Amanda Rollins had two children, Chris and I forget the name of the other one. Mother was very fond of her and helped to send her to the school in Petersburg for additional education.

Segment Synopsis: In this segment, Ellison Smyth refers to an individual named Booker T. Washington. It is important to note that this was not the Booker T. Washington of historic fame; it was a member of the Blacksburg community that was named after the famous Booker T. Washington. This information is clarified by Michael Cooke at the end of the interview.

Keywords: Agnew Hall; Amanda Rollins; Bitter Hill; Blacksburg, Virginia; carpentry; Chris Rollins; domestic work; Faculty Fumblers; farm work; football; Hagerson Family; Lee Street; Mills Family; Nellies Cave Road; painting; Petersburg, Virginia; race relations; Rollins Family; Smithfield Farm; Smithfield Plantation; tabacco; upbringing

Subjects: Blacksburg (Va.); Football; Race Relations; Smithfield Plantation House (Blacksburg, Va.)

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Why was that necessary?
Ellison Smyth: Huh?
Michael Cooke: Why was that necessary? Was there any Black high school?
Ellison Smyth: No, they had a grade school and what had been the earliest Presbyterian Church building shared with the Masonic Order. The Union Hill Church it was called, which was on the edge of what is now the Middle School in Blacksburg and that was turned into a Black school, graded school. When they built the Middle School that was demolished and by that time Blacks could—I don’t remember whether they were integrated into the public school then or later but anyhow that’s where the Black school was located, church and school. I had very wonderful relations as pastor with Archie Richmond who was pastor of AME church-
Michael Cooke: St. Paul AME?
Ellison Smyth: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: That’s the one on Penn Street.
Ellison Smyth: Yeah, that’s right on Penn Street. We had very close relations, and as we worked for the desegregation movement, we were just like twins almost. And the wife-
Michael Cooke: Is he still living?
Ellison Smyth: He went to Philadelphia, I believe, later, and I used to get a Christmas letter from him. But I haven’t heard from Archie for a long time, but he was a very fine person. His wife was a college graduate, a university graduate. The University Women’s Organization used to be on campus. When she joined, and she had a right to join, the president of the college, Dr. [Walter S.] Newman, said, you can’t meet on the campus anymore. No integration is allowed. Of course, he was a victim, had come up in an educational system where Richmond called all the signals. And if you weren’t in cahoots with the Richmond gang, you didn’t get the appropriations for-
Michael Cooke: So, this is President Newman who made that decision?
Ellison Smyth: That was President Newman, yes.
Michael Cooke: So, the idea of having a Black in a women’s organization affiliated with the university—
Ellison Smyth: It could not be done. And so they came to the Presbyterian Church.
Michael Cooke: Oh, so they came to your church?
Ellison Smyth: Yeah. And I took that up with the session, and it was right revealing of human nature. Dr. Newman was an elder in our church, and I had good relations with him. He was friendly and appreciative and all. But he and his wife could not break the line and would not break the line. Finally, he dropped out of the church because I was preaching straight.
Michael Cooke: Preaching straight at him? [Laughs].
Ellison Smyth: Well, that’s what he felt. In fact, one of the elders said, quit laying it on Walter. The wonderful thing about it is after people saw the light, so many of those who had bitterly opposed Mary Linda and myself in leadership with Mary Ann Mattus who was Jewish, and a stalwart leader in breaking down integration.
Michael Cooke: Breaking down segregation? You said-
Ellison Smyth: Breaking down segregation, yeah. [Laughs]. That was a mistake.
Michael Cooke: Yes.
Ellison Smyth: Mrs. Newman would cross the street to keep from speaking to Mary Linda. Mary Linda had suggested that at the musical events held in Burruss Hall that Blacks ought to be admitted on the same basis as anybody else. They were horrified at the idea, the college administration, can’t be done. And Mrs. Newman would cross the street to keep from speaking to Mary Linda. And Dr. Newman dropped out of our church.
Michael Cooke: Did others drop out? I mean, was he the only one?
Ellison Smyth: No, several of them.
Michael Cooke: Several of them? And did they articulate why they dropped out?
Ellison Smyth: They didn’t need to.
Michael Cooke: They didn’t need to.
Ellison Smyth: They put the heat on us.
Michael Cooke: In what ways did they try to put the heat on you?
Ellison Smyth: Huh?
Michael Cooke: In what ways did they try to put heat on you?
Ellison Smyth: Cut the salary.
Michael Cooke: Cut the salary?
Ellison Smyth: Yeah. And it didn’t work. More people came into the church when he dropped out because they were thankful that there was a church that adhered to the line and gave the truth. We received more members, almost without effort, than we lost. And the wonderful thing about it is that after people saw the light a few years later, those wounds healed and Dr. Newman, president of the bank, well we had to count the bank too, ‘cause we were on very friendly terms again. Same thing with some of the others who had really cussed me up and down the street. We just went back on friendly terms. The wounds were healed.
Michael Cooke: This was during the period of the [19]50s I guess.
Ellison Smyth: That was during the [19]60s.
Michael Cooke: Oh, during the [19]60s.
Ellison Smyth: Healed.
Michael Cooke: Healed. The falling out period during the [19]50s, I guess.
Ellison Smyth: In the [19]50s yeah.
Michael Cooke: Roughly around the Brown v. Board of Education decision?
Ellison Smyth: Yeah. It took a little while for it to get the repercussions in Blacksburg. We were back in the hills, hillbillies.
Michael Cooke: But it did come?
Ellison Smyth: It did come. It did come, finally. The light began to dawn.
Michael Cooke: You mentioned there was a Jewish lady who was very active.
Ellison Smyth: Yes.
Michael Cooke: What was her name again?
Ellison Smyth: Mary Anne [Tamarkin] Mattus. Her husband is still living, George [Emie] Mattus. The first time I heard her was in a PTA meeting. They had the president of the PTA from Roanoke as the speaker. This was after the Supreme Court decision. She was saying that the PTA should not say or do anything in contradiction of the standard of the state, massive resistance, that Harry Byrd tried to force down our throats. And at this meeting of the PTA where she spoke, I got up at the end when they had questions and so on, and I said, we just had a good report on a new school that had been established in Montgomery County. And, what’s the point in establishing new schools if they’re going to be closed, on account of Harry Byrd’s stand. My wife got up after that and said, we should not bury our heads in the sand. We better set up a committee to study what can be done to preserve education. And after the meeting broke up, people were very caustic in their criticism of both of us. That was really the spark that set in motion our desire to establish a Council on Juvenile Relations in Blacksburg. I had a lot of material hell at the start of that.

Keywords: Archie Richmond; Black high school; Brown v. Board of Education; Burruss Hall; Council on Juvenile Relations in Blacksburg; desegregation movement; Dr. Walter S. Newman; education opportunities; George Emie Mattus; Harry Byrd; Mary Ann Mattus; Mary Linda; Masonic Order; middle school; Montgomery County; Penn Street; Presbyterian Church; PTA; segregation; St. Paul AME; Supreme Court decision; The Masons; Union Hill Church; University Women's Organization

Subjects: Desegregation; Education equalization; Education Opportunities; Education, secondary; Presbyterian Church; Women

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay. Could you talk about some of the people who were active in this committee? Who did you try to solicit to be part of such a committee? By the way, when did you actually establish it? Was it [19]54, [19]55, [19]56, somewhere around there?
Ellison Smyth: You know, after you pass eighty-seven years of age, immediate recall is one of the first things you lose.
Michael Cooke: Well, I don’t even recall dates and things.
Ellison Smyth: Dates used to be one of my favorites.
Michael Cooke: If you can’t recall a date, who are some of the people? you probably could remember them. Who were part of this committee?
Ellison Smyth: The wife of one of the young professors, and jee I can’t recall her name. I saw them just the other night at the musical. She was right in on the integration movement right away. And my assistant pastor, Jerry Bonet.
Michael Cooke: Is he still in the area?
Ellison Smyth: No, Jerry died of a brain tumor. But he was my assistant pastor, and he started—there was one Black student at VPI, finally.
Michael Cooke: Was it Charlie Yates?
Ellison Smyth: Huh?
Michael Cooke: Was it Charlie Yates?
Ellison Smyth: I guess it was. I don’t remember right now.
Michael Cooke: It could be Charlie, it might have been another one.
Ellison Smyth: The first one.
Michael Cooke: There weren’t many so the odds are good.
Ellison Smyth: Just one walked. They opened the gate for one person to get in. Jerry Bonet was living in front of the old Presbyterian manse. We had bought a home out on Oak Drive. So, Jerry started a group with the Black student, myself, this wife of one of the professors, and several white students. And we’d meet on the upstairs back porch of the manse, and that was one thing that really helped to kick off the Council of Juvenile Relations. We finally decided that we needed better organization. Mary Ann Mattus, who was one of the leaders in it, and we met in the old Presbyterian manse. We had the Black barber, a good friend of mine.
Michael Cooke: John Sears?
Ellison Smyth: John Sears. Several of the others who were old-time friends of mine.
Michael Cooke: Was it the Warrens?
Ellison Smyth: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: I can’t think of his first name now.
Ellison Smyth: Well, it slips me too. You’re too young to have slips. [Laughs].
Michael Cooke: I just recently found out about him. Were there mainly barbers and businessmen and people connected with-
Ellison Smyth: John Warren and Sears had, what had been in my childhood days, the only barbershop in town. I was used to having John Warren cut my hair from childhood up. I was a scraggly little boy, and he had to almost tie me-
Michael Cooke: You were a cadet too, weren’t you?
Ellison Smyth: Not then, I was just a kid.
Michael Cooke: Weren’t you a member of the VPI. Everybody was a cadet, right?
Ellison Smyth: Oh, yes. Everybody was a cadet.
Michael Cooke: So, he cut your hair again probably?
Ellison Smyth: Oh yeah. That was the only place in town. The only decent place in town you could get a haircut. And then another barber shop, they call it John’s Barber Shop, too. It’s still in existence. I have to go there now to go to the barber shop. But John Warren and Sears, there were two or three in the barber shop then, and everybody got their hair cut there. They were very low key, yes sir, and tip their hat and be pleasant. But they were very fine, very fine people. I had a wonderful Black nurse when I was a kid. Mother used to bring them from Charleston, South Carolina when she would go home down there, bring one back. And one winter would cure them of Blacksburg, they didn’t like the cold climate. [Long pause]. I’m lost.
Michael Cooke: You were talking about relations with your committee. You had John Sears and Mr. Warren.
Ellison Smyth: And, oh what was her name? She nursed me when I was a kid. I can’t think of her name right now, but she was a very fine person. And then Amanda Rollins was one of the main-stays.
Michael Cooke: That’s one of the Black families.
Ellison Smyth: One of the Black families, and she had two little girls. Her husband worked at Smithfield, and he’d sing. We could have singing. Then there was a succeeding hymn at Smithfield was a Black, we used to call Rabbit.
Michael Cooke: I might even know who Rabbit is. Was it Leonard Price?
Ellison Smyth: I don’t remember his name.
Michael Cooke: It might not have been Leonard Price. It might have been-
Ellison Smyth: Could have been.
Michael Cooke: It might have been Leonard Price. I have to go back in my tapes because I remember some of the names that people were getting. I think it’s him, but I’m not sure. I have to go back and check my tapes.
Ellison Smyth: We all knew him as Rabbit, and he would yodel down there in Smithfield. We could hear him all over the campus. He had a voice that carried. He’d sing and yodel. We always knew when Rabbit was on the job. But John Sears was quiet.
Michael Cooke: Or was it Frank Banister?
Ellison Smyth: Banister. That rings a bell. It could have been. Frankly I don’t remember. I just knew him as Rabbit.
Michael Cooke: Frank Banister worked on campus with the president’s house I believe.
Ellison Smyth: Yeah. Dan worked up there. Dan Hoge. His family had been slaves to the Hoge in the valley.
Michael Cooke: Now, I mentioned about Banister. I think Banister was probably descended from slaves of the Kents of Wake Forest. So, he’s not connected with the Mills.
Ellison Smyth: That’s right. No, that’s different. The Wake Forest group, they used to walk into town for jobs. There’s some very fine folks out there. We had more contact with the Mills family....oh shucks.
Michael Cooke: Sears.
Ellison Smyth: And the Sears and Amanda Rollins. Amanda Rollins was one of Mother’s favorites. She was a very fine, very gifted person. When I came back as pastor, that was one of the first places I visited, to see Amanda. She said, I would so love to come and hear you preach, come to your church. And I said, you can come and sit anywhere you want to. Well, she came and sat up in the balcony in the corner.
Michael Cooke: Why do you think she did that?
Ellison Smyth: Well, the habitual patterns.
Michael Cooke: She didn’t want to embarrass you.
Ellison Smyth: She didn’t want to embarrass anybody. She was a very fine person.
Michael Cooke: If she had sat down there and then it got out that you said that she had the permission to, I think you would have been in a little bit of hot water.
Ellison Smyth: Oh, I didn’t have to say anything. People knew the relationship, and she could have sat anywhere. But she just chose not to embarrass anybody. We had very good relations. But it’s a hard pattern to break. My wife was just a champion. She backed me in everything. In fact, she led me very often. Together with Mary Ann Mattus, we three, I guess, were the ones that were criticized most severely. But they didn’t throw me out.

Keywords: Amanda Rollins; assistant pastor; barber shop; barbers; Charlie Yates; committee; Council of Juvenile Relations; Dan Hoge; establishment; Frank Bannister; integration movement; Jerry Bonet; John Sears; John Warren; Kent family; Kentland Plantation; Leonard Price; Mary Ann Mattus; Mills family; Oak Drive; Rabbit Price; Smithfield Plantation; Virginia Polytechnic Institute; VPI; Wake Forest

Subjects: Community Members; Desegregation; Kentland Farm; Smithfield Plantation House (Blacksburg, Virginia)

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Didn’t throw out your ministry?
Ellison Smyth: My family had too strong a reputation there for anyone to get sassy. They said it behind your back, and sometimes they said it a little too publicly and openly. But it was embarrassing to my white friends who were members of our church who did not see eye to eye. The head of our Board of Deacons came to me one day when Blacks were crashing the white churches, coming to the door and embarrassing them and-
Michael Cooke: Was that a deliberate policy? Was that something planned or was it something that somebody had conceptualized and said, well let's make the people realize that God is colorblind.
Ellison Smyth: Hard for people to realize that. But this head of the Ushers Guild said, what should I do if a group of Blacks come into the church? I said, what should you do? They are people, sit them anywhere they want to sit. About the same time I got a card from our General Assembly’s Office on Social Justice: has your session taken a stand on the membership of non-whites and the seating of non-whites, too? And I took that to the session. I said, it’s time for this session to get on the ball. A decision has got to be made. I was tied by the session on the church. They said, appoint a committee to make a study. [Laughs]. Always you appoint a committee. I said, well, who should appoint it? [They said,] You’ll appoint it, and bring your recommendations to us. And if we don’t like it we’ll throw it out. And they planned to throw me out, too. So, I appointed, as chairman of the committee, Oran McGill, who had served twenty-five years as a missionary in China. He was from Mississippi, then, but he knew what the call was-
[Break in recording]
Michael Cooke: Okay, we’re back again. We just got interrupted.
Ellison Smyth: Okay, we are back with Oran McGill as chairman, who’d been a missionary in China for the YMCA. One member, and I have a [inaudible 20:26] here. I’ll give you a copy of our history. One from Prince Edward County, and everybody knows what Prince Edward County is noted for.
Michael Cooke: Yeah that’s right. What it’s noted for.
Ellison Smyth: But I knew he was a real Christian, and he would sweat blood over trying to find the Christian answer.
Michael Cooke: Okay, who was that?
Ellison Smyth: He’s listed in that history I’ll give you. One other from the what we called the Black Belt of Virginia, but again, a good solid Christian. And he knew it would cause him a lot of blood, sweat, and tears but he’d come out on the right side. One from the Valley of Virginia, and the tradition in his community was, Black, don’t let the sun set on you in the county.
Michael Cooke: What county was that?
Ellison Smyth: That was up the valley and after the [inaudible 31:32]. I told Mr. McGill, make it a steady committee, and when you have a unanimous report to bring, bring it to the session, and we’ll vote on it. And I’ll give you a copy of all that. They parted over it for several months and came back finally with a unanimous decision of the committee, not even mentioning segregation or integration, saying that in accordance with the Book of Church Order of the Presbyterian Church and a Christian commitment to the Presbyterian Church that anyone who makes a credible profession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ shall be admitted membership and seated anywhere in the church they want to. And also any group, rather integrated or not, any group wishing to use the facilities if the Board of Deacons can arrange a meeting place, they shall be admitted with no questions. Now we had a church day school, 135 children, that was before the public school had a kindergarten age group. The wife of the [St. Paul] AME pastor, Archie Richmond, they had a child, and Archie came to me and said, I don’t embarrass you or put you on the spot, but we’d like to enroll our child in the Presbyterian Nursery School. Would it be all right? And I said, of course it’s all right. Glad to have her. Mrs. Hill, who was principal of our school said, just don’t mention it. Just go ahead and enroll the child like you would anybody else. Well that got misinterpreted to the chairman of the committee in charge of our nursery school, and he came for the session and said, when we voted for letting anyone come into the church who made a profession of faith in Christ, I didn’t know that was going to apply to the church nursery school too.
Michael Cooke: [Laughs] even a child has to make a profession-
Ellison Smyth: Always have to.
Michael Cooke: [Laughs].
Ellison Smyth: So he said, I asked Mrs. Hill, the superintendent of our school, how about that? And she said, well, Ellison said don’t say anything about it, go ahead. And he interpreted that I had told her to keep it hush-hush. I hadn’t meant that at all. I meant enroll the child just as you would enroll any other child. And so he brought that to the session, and I had learned by that time that with the president of the college with a fixation against integration and with members of the faculty—ninety percent of them were members of the faculty—and he was holding a club, and I had just had moral persuasion. I started at the end, lined up in a circle in the session meetings when the issue came up. And I started at the other end away from Dr. Newman, and I asked the first man, pretty sure that he was going to answer right and he did. He said that he had no objection at all to Blacks being admitted to the church or the nursery school. I went around from one after the other like that and finally got around to Dr. Newman. He said, I’ll just have to vote no. And he got up and walked out, and that’s the time he left the church. As I say, I was happy that a few years afterwards, after the dust had settled, all those animosities had died down. I had good friendly relations with the people who had been most bitterly opposed before.

Keywords: Archie Richmond; Black Belt of Virginia; Board of Deacons; Book of Church Order of the Presbyterian Church; colorblind; Dr. Newman; General Assembly's Office on Social Justice; Mrs. Hill; Oran McGill; policy; Presbyterian Nursery School; Prince Edward County; reputation; St. Paul AME; sundown towns; Ushers Guild; YMCA

Subjects: Desegregation; Presbyterian Church; YMCA

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Well, let me ask you another question that is related to an earlier one. You mentioned at a PTA meeting that there had been a lot of contention. Well, outside the PTA meeting, were there other meetings that were held concerning the desegregation of the schools? Were you a participant?
Ellison Smyth: The only other meetings that I know of were after we organized the….oh what was it called?
Michael Cooke: Committee of the Human Relations?
Ellison Smyth: Committee of Human Relations. And we met in the cafeteria first of the local school, and I got J. Blair Morton, I believe his name was, who was a retired school official in the state but who didn’t believe in Harry Byrd’s stand on national resistance. He was the speaker. He spoke very diplomatically, and it didn’t raise much dust, but at least it helped some people to choose sides. Then after that, the committee on Human Relations, we could meet in the [St. Paul] AME church, all right, no question. And the Black Baptist Church, which was really the first Baptist Church in Blacksburg.
Michael Cooke: On Clay Street?
Ellison Smyth: That’s right. We could meet there with no question. Jack whatchamacallit, who was rector of the Episcopal Church, he could determine who could meet in their common hall, and so we didn’t have any problem there. The real problem was when I took it to Presbyterian session, and it took, as I said, it took a year or so before the session came around and found stride. Then we had integrated meetings in our church with no question, and happily it’s gone on from there. Well, there was a question there—and you’ll find that in the history I’ll give you—that the opening of the doors of the white churches in some ways weakened the Black churches who were doing a good work. And there was a question there, should it be done? I haven’t found an answer to that yet. But our doors are open, but there are a very few Blacks that come. We have a couple of men from India. I think we have one Black family. We have some Orientals, but I don’t think there’s any drive because of the reluctance to do anything that might weaken the existing Black churches. I don’t know what the answer to that is.
Michael Cooke: In fact, I gave a talk a few years ago and the question was, when will our churches ever be integrated? I gave a Black history talk on that. I think that’s the question that you’re grappling with.
Ellison Smyth: That’s right. Now when our church, it’s now 117 Main Street, the oldest building on Main Street. It was built in 1848. And Colonel William Thomas—I’ll have to look up his name— he had his slaves do the labor on the church. There’s a slave gallery with an outside back entrance. That slave gallery is still there, though the steeple is gone. You’ll find a description of that in the history I wrote. But the gallery is still there, and it has been a meeting hall for one of the fraternities, Odd Fellows, I believe. It has been a conceptual clothing store, whatever that is. It had been a nightclub, which I’m sure made the Presbyterian fathers turn over in their graves.
Michael Cooke: Was that a Black or white—
Ellison Smyth: White. And it is now a restaurant; of course, it’s integrated. So that’s the history of that building. We moved from that building to the one on Roanoke Street in 1904 which is now Church of God. I was baptized, I guess I was about the last person baptized in the old church on Main Street in January 1904. We moved into the other church in 1904.
Michael Cooke: Which is now the Church of God?
Ellison Smyth: Now the Church of God.

Keywords: Black Baptist Church; Church of God; Clay Street; Colonel William Thomas; Committee of the Human Relations; desegregation; Episcopal Church; Harry Byrd; J. Blair Morton; Main Street; moving churches; Odd Fellows; Presbyterian; PTA; schools; St. Paul AME Church

Subjects: Committee of Human Relations; Desegregation; Presbyterian Church

Partial Transcript: Ellison Smyth: And that had a gallery. The cadets, all students, had to be in the cadet corps [Corps of Cadets]. I entered VPI in 1921. I was a buck private in the rear rank of E Company and was in the parade for Marshall Foch in Richmond in 192[1]-
Michael Cooke: That was the French-
Ellison Smyth: Yeah. The French general [inaudible 43:05] of all the Allied Forces during World War I.
Michael Cooke: So I guess he was making the Victory Tour as we would call it today. [Laughs].
Ellison Smyth: That’s right. But I was the buck private in the rear ranks of that parade. When the Highty Tighties got that name and then in 1895 Oscar Stalls, he and his brother John played on the first football team, VAMC [Virginia Agricultural Mechanical College]. It was then Virginia Agricultural and Mechanical College. My father [Ellison Adger Smyth, Jr.] coached the first football team as well as being the head of biology and the dean of the college. But…[long pause]. I’m lost…
Michael Cooke: It happens. Let’s see...
Ellison Smyth: I was talking about Oscar Stalls. In 1905 it changed from AMC—Agricultural Mechanical College—to VPI, Virginia Polytechnic and [John McLaren] McBryde was President. They had to write a new yell for the college because now it was not VAMC but VPI. Oscar Stalls was a senior in that class of 1905, and he wanted to go to his senior prom, admission five dollars. He didn’t have five dollars. But they offered five dollars prize for whoever wrote the best yell, using VPI instead of VAMC. He sat down and wrote, [One Two! One, Two!] Hokie Hokie Hokie Hy, [Tech Tech V.P.I, Sola-Rex, Sola-Rah], Poly Tech’s Vir-gin-ia. Ray Rah V.P.I, Team Team Team. He got the first prize, and he went to his prom. Five dollars. So, they’re still called the Hokies. That’s where that came from.
Michael Cooke: Oh, that’s where that came from. He just thought it up.
Ellison Smyth: He thought it up. They used to ask Oscar, what in the world does Hokie mean? It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just a good thing to yell.

Keywords: 1895; Allied Forces; biology; chant; cheer; Corps of Cadets; E Company; Ellison Adger Smyth, Jr.; First World War; football; football coach; Highty Tighties; John Stalls; Marshall Foch; Old Hokie; Oscar Stalls; parade; Richmond, Virginia; VAMC; Virginia Agricultural Mechanical College; Virginia Polytechnic Institute; VPI; World War I; WWI

Subjects: Football; Virginia Agricultural and Mechanical College; Virginia Polytechnic Institute; Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University. Corps of Cadets

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Well, let’s see. I guess we have covered most of the ground in terms of the interview. I’m trying to think there’s one other thing. The Black businessmen, how much of a role did they play? Was there any significant class of Black businessmen? We mentioned John Sears.
Ellison Smyth: The only business that I know of was John Sears’ barber shop. They did skilled carpentry work. They were carpenters, worked on the farm, some of them worked at the college. But there was a pretty general understanding of the color line.
Michael Cooke: Do you think that led to a lot of the Blacks leaving the area?
Ellison Smyth: They just never were in this area.
Michael Cooke: Even among the ones who did live here, was there a lack of jobs?
Ellison Smyth: Lack of jobs, yeah. It was a real problem. In fact, it still is. It still is for young Blacks to find employment here.
[Break in Recording]

Keywords: barber shop; black businesses; black businessmen; carpenters; college; employment; farm work; John Sears; lack of jobs; migration; work opportunities

Subjects: Black Bussinesses; Work Opportunities

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Hi.
Ellison Smyth: Mary Linda, this is Mike.
Michael Cooke: How are you doing?
Mary Linda: How are you?
Michael Cooke: Pretty good. Nice meeting you.
Mary Linda: Nice to know you.
Ellison Smyth: Pretty good he says. His car broke down, and I drove him to pick it up.
Michael Cooke: I think I better get off the tape before people know too much about what my circumstances are [Laughs]. We’ll stop on this.
[End of interview]

Segment Synopsis: In the conclusion of the interview, Ellison Smyth's wife, Mary Linda, enters the conversation, briefly. The interview ends abruptly as the participants start an unrelated conversation about Michael Cooke's car breaking down.

Keywords: Mary Linda

Partial Transcript: [Addendum added by Michael Cooke after the interview to clarify information regarding someone’s name that was unclear during the interview]
Michael Cooke: Ellison Smyth referred to Booker T. that he played against, Booker T. in terms of football. He did not mean the Booker T. Washington of historical fame. He referred to a person who was known in the community as Booker T. A number of Black family’s named their sons after Booker T. Washington.

Segment Synopsis: In this segment, Michael Cooke clarifies a person named Booker T. Washington to which Ellison Smyth referred in the interview. The Booker T. from Smyth's description was a member of the Blacksburg community, and it was not the famous Booker T. Washington.

Keywords: Booker T. Washington