Oral History with Thompson V. Lester, Sr., and Elizabeth Lester, February 27, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Michael Cooke: Today is February 27, 1991. I'm conducting an interview with Thompson V. Lester, Sr., of Christiansburg. Mr. Lester, could you give us a brief biographical sketch of your life? Your birthdate, your birthplace, education, and occupation.

Thompson Lester: Well, I was born in Christiansburg in Montgomery County, 1915. The son of James and Fanny Lester. I lived in Christiansburg all my life except five years. And I'm on the part of land [00:33] that father owned and was inherited to me. I went to public school in Christiansburg on Cambria [Street] [00:44] then I went to C. I., Christiansburg Institute.

C: Did you go to the Hill's school?

TL: I went to the Hill School first. Then after graduation from Hill School, I attended C. I. for three years. Then, I got married and left town.

C: Left town? Where'd you go?

TL: I went to New Jersey.

C: [Laughs]. What part in New Jersey?

TL: I went to Caldwell, New Jersey.

C: Where?

TL: Caldwell.

C: Caldwell, New Jersey. Where's that near?

TL: That's near Paterson. It's not too far from Newark.

C: Okay.

TL: And I stayed there for about two or three years. [inaudible 01:260] for a few years. Then the war broke out and I returned back home.

C: That's World War II?

TL: That's World War II.

C: Were you in the service?

TL: Yes. I served three years in the Navy. I got discharged from the Navy. Then I came home and went to work at [inaudible 1:40] dry cleaners. I worked there til I retired.

C: Was that a Black business?

TL: Yes.

C: How long had that business been established?

TL: Oh my dear...it's the oldest cleaners in Montgomery County.

C: Who owned it?

TL: My father, James Lester.

C: So it's a Lester--is it still owned by the family?

TL: It's still owned by the family. My brother operating it now. Not my brother, my nephew, Carlos Brown Lester, I believe is his name.

C: Okay, so it still continues. When did it first open by the way?

TL: Oh, my father--back when we were children. [Laughs]. My father dry cleaned back when I was a little boy.

C: So, maybe around 1920 or something?

TL: Before then.

C: Before then? Before World War I?

TL: Yeah. No,not before World War I. Before World War II. I don't know what year daddy [inaudible 02:44]-

C: But it's been operating for the longest period of time.

TL: That's right. From way up in the late [19]20s up to the present time.

C: And did you always live on the Radford Street area?

TL: Lived here since I was a little kid, raised out here.

C: Were there a lot of Blacks living in this area or-

TL: Well, it was four families. That's all.

C: Do you remember the family names?

TL: Yeah it was the Johnsons-

Elizabeth Lester: How you doing?

C: Pretty good. Thank you.

TL: The Clarks, and the Robinsons. That was all.

C: And the Lesters, of course.

TL: And the Lesters.

C: So, it was all the people that lived there?

TL: That was all the people that lived in my time, when I first came here, I mean, when I was born here.

C: Do you remember anything about those other families and some about your own family that kind of stands out in your mind?

TL: Yeah. My uncle, they called John Lester, was a what ya call them? An [inaudible 3:32] teacher at C. I. He was the blacksmith there back when C. I. began. And let me see--and my other two uncles, they were hotel men. And that's all I have.

C: Hotel? Was there a Black hotel?

TL: No. They worked for Virginia Hotel. For white only.

C: For a white hotel? Okay. Could you talk about educational opportunities for Blacks in this area during the period that you were a child?

TL: Yes because there was Christiansburg Institute. That's where I came from [4:06]. The quakers brought it here. It had a boarding school and everything for the Black children in Montgomery County. It was brought here way before my time.

C: Did it simply serve the people of Montgomery County or-

TL: No, no. There was a boarding school they could come and stay. There were boarding students that used to come and stay. They had a dormitory for the girls and dormitory for the boys. And they taught them all different kinds of trade. You know like-

C: Did they have a dining room?

TL: They had a dining room, kitchen, laundry. They had a farm. They farmed. They had everything that way. Any content you want to learn, they had some of it. Even typing and newspaper.

EL: Even a hospital.

TL: A hospital at one time.

C: A hospital for Blacks?

TL: Yeah, it had a hospital at one time.

EL: On campus.

C: How many beds? I mean as a guess.

TL: I don't know maybe two dormitories. I would say....I don't know-

C: Oh, you're talking about the accommodations for the boarders.

TL: Yeah, the students stayed there. But the hospital had, I would say they had fifteen or twenty beds, maybe more. I can't tell because that's been a long time.

C: What was the name of the hospital? Or was it a clinic? Was it a clinic or a hospital?

TL: It was something like a clinic. More like a clinic, I think. And they would take students and transfer them to a hospital if they had to go.

C: Did it serve people living in the community? I mean, nonstudents.

TL: That's right. The people in the community.

C: Was there a physician who attended the people? Was there a nurse?

TL: They had a nurse. I think the doctor came in.

C: Oh, did he come regularly?

TL: Yes. I think he came regularly.

C: Do you remember the names of some of the people who-

TL: Dr. Showalters was one of the main, I think. See it's been a long time.

C: Do you remember his first name?

TL: A. M. Showalters. Was that his name?

EL: A. M.

TL: A. M. Showalters. Dr. A. M. Showalters.

C: Did they have a Black nurse, or were they white nurses?

TL: Let's see--[inaudible 06:17]

C: So it was a white nurse?

TL: I guess it was a white nurse.

C: Could Black people go to the area hospital? What was the area hospital?

TL: The area hospital was Montgomery--what was that?

EL: [inaudible 06:34]

TL: [inaudible 06:35] but that was town hospital. You go there and they would transfer you. They didn't keep you there.

C: They didn't keep you?

TL: Unh-uh.

C: They didn't allow Blacks to stay?

TL: They didn't let them stay at the time.

C: But they treat you in an emergency?

TL: Go in there and get treated. Then got right out and take you back to a-

EL: Campbell's House.

TL: A lady's home to keep you. But you didn't stay there.

EL: You probably see the big house down in the corner down there. That's where they used to take the patients [7:07]. It was called Campbell's House.

C: Campbell's house [7:07].

EL: The yellow house.

C: Why don't you come a little closer because you might as well be part of this.

EL: No, I'm not a part of-

C: Why don't you identify yourself?

TL: Yeah, tell them who you are.

C: For the tape's sake I have a tape ready so might as well identify you.

EL: I have been here-

TL: Identify yourself.

EL: Hm?

TL: Identify yourself.

C: Your name [Laughs].

EL: I am Thompson's wife. I'm Betty Lester.

C: Betty Lester. Okay. And you said there was a place, a Campbell house or something-

EL: It was Campbell. That's how you spell the name. [inaudible 07:53] you could go there and have an operation and then they transport you to the Campbell house.

C: I'm going to move a little closer.

TL: Talk a little louder. He can't hear what you're saying.

C: I'll move a little closer.

EL: I was trying to say we have it in the books upstairs.

TL: I'm not going there.

C: Okay. Well, let's ask some more questions about healthcare. So did Black people go to local physicians and go to their waiting rooms?

TL: Yeah, they could visit the doctor's. Sure. You could go.

C: Were they segregated? Did they have segregated waiting rooms?

TL: No.

C: My wife said she grew up with a--the physician had one side of the room where the Blacks were supposed to-

TL: Now, I can't remember that because it wasn't my time. I can't say before that time.

C: So it wasn't that bad this-

TL: No. No. We had a doctor come out here in a horse and buggy to see us when we were children.

C: Do you remember some of those physicians?

TL: Yeah Dr. Edmondson. Dr. Wragley [08:50]. They used to make house calls. And that was when I was a little boy.

EL: Dr. Grammar [08:56].

TL: And Dr. Grammar.

C: Did they treat you-

TL: Yes, come to my house. Yes.

C: Did they treat you with respect?

TL: Yeah they would. They were nice people. They were nice doctors.

C: They didn't insult you by racial-

TL: No. No. [inaudible 9:12]

C: That's good.

TL: We didn't even hear that word. [9:15]

C: That's good. Let's see. We talked about educational opportunities. Now, how far did people come to go to Christiansburg Institute?

TL: Oh they came from different counties. They came from Floyd, down in Richmond. Some came from Bristol. All along, they would come here to school. It was a boarding school. They had some that come from [Inaudible 9:39].

EL: They had girls from New York.

C: Girls from New York?

TL: That's right.

C: Well, was it one reason they came from all over in part because of quality of school, obviously.

TL: There wasn't no high school for the Black children at that time. And that was the only Black school in this vicinity.

C: In this vicinity?

TL: Yeah.

C: How far away would you have to go to find one?

TL: The next one would be-

EL: Richmond. Petersburg.

C: What about Roanoke?

TL: I think you had to go to Roanoke--Later on they got one, but see in the beginning, you had to go to Petersburg.

EL: You had to go to Petersburg.

C: So you had to go all the way to Petersburg?

TL: To the high school. Didn't have any high school here.

C: So not even Roanoke?

TL: Not at that time.

C: When did Roanoke have a high school for Blacks?

TL: [inaudible 10:31] I don't know the year.

C: But it was well after you had finished your schooling?

TL: No, it was there before I finished. We used to play them in football.

C: Oh, so about the time you finished?

TL: C. I. was built way back by the Quakers.

C: 1860s.

TL: 1860s. See that was the only high school to send Blacks then [10:49]. But then [inaudible 10:52] got a high school and then they begin to fall in line with [inaudible 10:56] quite a few years after that, as far as I can tell.

C: Okay. Well, let's see, did any whites live nearby you in the community? How did you get along with them?

TL: Very fine. You wasn't out here nothing but white women after my father come out here.

EL: You meant Black.

TL: White. He was the only Black out here with them.

C: So, you didn't have any problem with them. No incidents where people started calling each other names? Or pull out guns and knives anything?

TL: No. No. Didn't have that kind of trouble. We got along very good. The mixed families out here on this street when I was a boy, we got along fine.

C: What kind of jobs did people have in this area? I mean, you had a family business, so obviously you went into the family business.

TL: There wasn't nothing but hotels and house maid work, you know.

C: Domestic work?

TL: Uh-huh-

EL: Domestic.

TL: Sometimes, I would take it all in. I had babysitting here [11:53] And they had-

C: What about men, though? Because men didn't do domestic work.

TL: They went to a few railroaders. Some of them worked on the railroad.

C: Which railroads?

TL: N and W.

C: N and W?

TL: Um-hm.

C: Did they get good pay?

TL: They got regular pay like they paid [inaudible 12:09].

C: Could they join the labor unions?

TL: Now that I can't say.

C: You're not aware?

EL: Towards the last, the end.

C: Towards the end. Not in the beginning?

TL: I don't say 'cause, see, I never worked the railroads.

C: Okay, let me ask another question. What about the mines? Did any people work-

TL: Yeah, we had some that worked in the mines.

C: In this area?

TL: No, they had to go to West Virginia. Most of them worked in West Virginia. They had a few that worked here in the mines. In-

EL: Wake Forest.

TL: Wake Forest.

C: And Merrimac, right?

TL: Um-hm. Merrimac.

C: Anybody you knew personally that worked at the mines?

EL: Uh-huh. Mr. Bannister.

TL: Yeah, Mr. Bannister.

C: Frank Bannister?

EL: Yeah, you should talk to Mr. Bannister

C: I have. I just interviewed him yesterday. [Laughs].

TL: You got that didn't you?

C: Any others? In fact--probably some more before it's all done--but any others that-

TL: That worked in the mines around here?

EL: John Harrison didn't work, but his brother worked in the mines when they first came to Virginia.

C: Now, John Harrison, I believe, worked in West Virginia. But when he came, he worked with the post office-

EL: The post office. But his brother, I believe, is down in Wake Forest. Now, I wonder if he worked in the mines down in Wake Forest-

TL: Yeah.

EL: Because he was here a long time before his brother at the post office.

C: Okay. Why did so many Blacks leave this area? Because I was looking at some statistics-

TL: The reason they left the area?

C: Yeah.

TL: It was job opportunity, I would say.

C: Lack of job opportunity?

TL: Lack of job opportunity, yes. Because people couldn't find nothing but farm work here [13:40] when they finished school, so they went other places.

C: Where did people generally go? I mean, the people that you remember, some of their children-

TL: Lots of them left and went to the Roanoke Hotel. A lot of them did stay around here in hotels and worked. But most of them, I don't know where most of them...[14:05]

EL: I would say Washington.

TL: Yeah, [14:12] in that area. Domestic metropolitan area. I would say they moved up to the metropolitan area.

C: So for better opportunities?

TL: Yes.

C: Okay. When they had desegregation in this area, what was the reaction of many whites when the word came around with the Brown [v. Board of Education] decision that you would have to desegregate the public schools? How did that process turn out in this area?

TL: I think it went fine. My children were in school, and they didn't have any trouble. My children didn't have any. As far as I can see, it went very good.

C: When were the first Blacks entered into white schools that you can recall in Christiansburg?

TL: I guess Tommy [Thompson V. Lester, Jr.] was the first one [14:53].

EL: We left Tommy over at the school until it closed. There were only about three Blacks there when the school closed. All the rest of them had already 6:00transferred down to the school right here was the high school then, the one right down the street here. Most of the children they had, there were three children, Ann Pack [15:12], the bishop child, and let's see. Who else? Was left over at school, and they were the last children to come over to Christiansburg. [inaudible 15:26] Tommy [inaudible 15:27] high school.

C: So, in other words, not all Blacks went.

EL: Yes.

C: It was kind of an experiment.

EL: An experiment, um-hm.

C: So for the first few years, they had--you said, what? Select Blacks?

EL: Yeah.

C: I mean, how were they selected? How did they know-

EL: I don't know how they selected them, and I don't know how we left him over there. It was just because-

TL: Because they hadn't closed up, and they didn't want to stay until they closed up. When they closed up, then they all left.

C: But they did have an experiment with a few people?

TL: That's right.

C: Who were some of the people responsible for, you know, the whites who either spoke for or against desegregation in this area? What was the response from the 7:00Mayor and the city council and the school board when they had to deal with that superintendent, for instance.

TL: Well, I think it all went very smoothly for what I can recall. They didn't seem to have no great problems.

EL: Well, plus we knew they had--I mean there was no fighting and all that.

C: There was no--you know, nobody is going to overturn a bus.

TL: That's right.

EL: There was nothing like that.

TL: Weren't going to destroy property and all that.

EL: Plus we knew it was [inaudible 16:32]. [Laughs] But--

TL: But it went very smoothly, to my opinion. I didn't see where it was all that exciting.

C: Okay, let's see. Before they had desegregation, how would you compare your goods and services? When Blacks would have a problem--a police problem or sanitation problem or whatever the problem you had--did they quickly respond or 8:00did they say, well this is a Black neighborhood. Well, we serve whites first. Was that kind of the attitude that people had?

TL: No. You mean the county would take care of the town part? Is that what you're saying?

C: Or was the town, in the case you were in the town, in this case you were in the town-

TL: The area of town, yes. I'm still in the town.

C: You seem to have a different opinion. Your wife started to say something else. What was your opinion?

EL: Well, I guess it was fine. I was just about to say, we have Black trouble right now because there's some places out here now that should be fixed. We've been in preparation for how long now? We don't have paved streets or paved-

TL: Sidewalks.

EL: Sidewalks out here. And of course-

C: Have you requested that they be paved?

EL: Yes. Yes.

C: How have you done so?

TL: Well, they went down and told the town council at a meeting and asked them for it. But they said they'd take care of it as soon as they possibly could.

EL: It's been ten years.

TL: I don't know how long it's been.

C: Well, it doesn't seem to be a high priority order item.

TL: Well one thing, we hadn't really pushed it that hard to get it. I think we don't have enough people that interested to push it to the point that they would do something.

EL: I tell you what I think the reason why that hadn't is because enough Blacks didn't get together. They're not standing together to go to these things. And I think if you are favored or anything like that, you have to come together yourself and go to them, you know. Not just one person, out there as a group. And I don't think we were working together as a group to do things. I think we would get more things done.

C: So with a small number of Blacks in here, if you have a small problem as a Black, then maybe they may not pay as much attention if you had a large neighborhood association where you had many many people with many many taxpayers.

EL: That's right. It would be a lot different.

C: So, who did you approach when you had to--you went to the mayor? Did you communicate with him?

TL: Yes, you have to [inaudible 19:12] from town council. There were town meetings. You'd go to them. Then you'd go to the mayor [inaudible 19:22]. And that's the way you'd do that.

C: It just didn't happen? Well, I guess-

TL: They claimed they would do it when they could get to it, but they were not able at the current time. But they always say, well we'll get to it.

C: Hm.

EL: That they don't have the money.

C: They never have the money. Well, let me ask you another question. How many Black businesses were operating in this area besides--I know about S. B. Morgan and Burrell Morgan and your business. There was another person who had a drive in. A Carl...what was his name? Morgan or Carl--who owned a--But how many people who owned, who were extensive land owners and business owners?

TL: Well, there's a man down there and [20:05] he had a cab and a restaurant at one time.

EL: Down the street here [inaudible 20:13].

TL: Then we had a man who had a filling station named Charlie Mathews.

C: That's the man I was thinking about.

TL: Charlie Matthews.

EL: He was on this street too.

TL: He was on the Radford Road.

C: I understand he dealt with junk.

TL: That's right.

C: On the side--well maybe not on the side--that might have been his main business, actually.

TL: Well he had that and a filling station, too.

C: A funeral station?

TL: Filling.

EL: Filling.

C: A filling station.

TL: Gas station. In other words, a combination restaurant with food and stuff like that.

C: What kind of clientele did the Black businessmen have? I mean, was it exclusively Black or did it have--was it mixed whites clientele and Black, or was it just one race?

TL: You mean in the business part together?

C: Yeah, when you were operating your business, who were the people using your business?

TL: Well, my father, when he was in business, he did [business] for both, Black and white.

C: So, both Blacks and whites would come?

TL: Um-hm. And it's the same thing about this man the [Charlie] Mathews. He had Black and white customers. Even the barber shops, they had Black and whites. [inaudible 21:24] in the barber shop, and he had Black and white customers. And the cab business was the same way. They'd haul Black and whites.

C: I guess with the Morgans, too. They dealt with that.

TL: They did.

C: I talked to-

TL: And I think they have that same system today. [inaudible 21:47].

C: So in terms of businesses and providing services-

TL: They'd get together public.

C: There was never a problem?

TL: No.

C: Never a problem. Okay. What about social life? I mean, I know there was an active church life in this area. Schaeffer Memorial and then what's the other one?

TL: Asbury.

EL: Asbury.

C: Asbury United Methodist.

TL: Um-hm.

C: And then there's one other. Mount Zion or-

TL: Yeah, Mount Zion Holiness.

C: Holiness. Talk about church life in this area. Did a lot of people attend?

TL: Oh, yeah lots of people going to the church back when I was a young man. See, after they all grew up and married and got their education and left, so we don't have that same amount of population. But back when I was a boy, we had a church full on Sunday.

EL: Yeah, and the other church, too. One of the Baptist churches on Harless Street.

TL: Second Baptist Church.

EL: Second Baptist Church.

C: Oh, I didn't know that.

TL: Yeah, Second Baptist Church, but somewhere they disband. I don't know what happened.

EL: I don't either. It was a beautiful church.

C: Was it big or?

TL: Yeah, nice church.

C: Did it compare with Schaeffer? Schaeffer is a good size church now.

TL: Yes, it's about that size.

EL: Yes, almost the same size.

C: Hm, I never even heard about that one.

EL: It's on Harless street.

TL: Harless Street. It's on Harless Street. [23:06]

EL: I think it would be Harless [Street] where that church was.

C: So many Blacks went to church-

TL: That's right. That was the main gathering place.

EL: A lot of activities.

C: What kind of activities were operated?

EL: Well, there was suppers. What were they talking about? Cake walks.

C: Cake walks.

TL: All kinds of entertainment.

EL: All types of entertainment like that, but you had something to do just about--choir rehearsal. There was something always to do at church.

C: You didn't have an integrated society. You couldn't easily go to the movies or something, but you could socialize with one another.

TL: You could go to the movies, but we had to sit on the downside of where white people sit [23:54]. You had segregated, separate sections.

C: Where did you go to the movies?

TL: Palace Theater.

EL: Palace Theater.

TL: It was on Main Street in Christiansburg.

EL: You know where Scottie [Drugstore] is, drugstore is?

C: Oh, yes.

EL: There was a theater right there.

C: Oh that was a theater?

EL: And Thompson's business was right above there. Above that theater was his father's business.

C: And then you moved it over onto--what's the name of it? Franklin.

TL: Yeah, on Franklin Street.

C: So it was originally located-

TL: It was originally located on Main Street.

C: Oh, okay. And that would be, let's see, East Main? Or was that West Main? I can't remember.

TL: This is West which would be.

EL: On the East corner.

C: It's got to be West Main because the courthouse would be the start of East Main, right?

EL: A lot of this is West Main.

C: So it was on West Main.

TL: Um-hm.

C: Right. Was it the operation as near big as your present business-

TL: Well, my father had three parts of it. You clean on this side, you pressed on this side, and you shine shoes on the other side. You had three sections down there. It was a pretty good sized place.

C: As big as the present-

TL: As I regard, it was as large as the one we have now [25:10].

C: You had more operations. You had three different-

TL: That's right. Before we had three things because he'd clean on one side, we'd finish in the middle, and we would take care of the shoe shine on the other side.

EL: Then you had delivery service.

TL: And I had delivery service.

C: And you delivered too?

TL: Um-hm.

C: So you had what? How many vehicles to deliver?

TL: We didn't have but one vehicle.

C: Just one vehicle.

TL: That's right.

C: So somebody would call you, or drop by-

TL: They'd call. We'd pick them up.

C: Oh, you'd come and pick them up?

TL: We picked them up. Pick up and delivery service.

C: All the convenience. Too bad they don't have that today. [Laughs].

EL: Ain't that the truth?

TL: They don't have that today?

C: No. No, they don't. Well, let's see. What other questions...Could you talk about social organizations? I was talking to you about the Odd Fellows and the Household of Ruth and the Independent Order of St. Luke's or Eastern Stars as we 15:00now have. What kind of organizations did people--why did people join those organizations, and were there a lot of people involved with them?

TL: Well, as I identify, I don't see what happened [26:23]. There's no way I can find out [26:24].

C: Which one? You were a Mason.

TL: I was a Mason.

C: Where was the Mason building located? Or did you have a building?

TL: Yeah, we had a building down on Depot Street.

C: On Depot. Near where?

TL: Right across the street from the new building they building. It was right across from the new one they're building.

C: And which is where? I can't-

TL: That's on Franklin.

EL: [inaudible 27:00]

TL: No. It's on Depot Street. That's going towards Cambria [Street]. It's on Depot and-

C: Is it near the Morgans or Murry's or all that or is it past-

TL: It's past that.

EL: [inaudible 27:04]

C: Oh, up the hill?

TL: Um-hm. It's on Stone and Depot Street.

EL: He's still on Depot, I believe.

C: Okay, I think I have an idea. Oh yeah, I think I've seen that building. That's right. Well, how many people were part of the Masons? How many members did you generally have? Let's say, when did you first join, number one?

TL: [counts to self] I think I joined Mason in [19]47. 19[47], I think that's right.

C: And the Masons had been established-

TL: They were there when I was a boy.

C: So, it had been a fixture.

TL: Been around a long long time. And I joined in [19]47.

C: And how many members did you generally have as a rule?

TL: We got--

EL: [inaudible 28:00]

TL: Back when I was young, how many we had then? Well I think we had, I'd say, twenty or so.

C: That's a good number. A good number.

TL: I say twenty or so.

C: What were the requirements? [Laughs]. I probably shouldn't even ask this question.

EL: Just hands there [28:21]

C: [Laughs].

TL: I can't--

C: You can't tell?

EL: I think you all jumped ahead of yourselves. The Household of Ruth and whatcha call it was older than the Masons.

TL: I don't know.

EL: My mother was a household of Ruth and my father was a brother to the household.

C: The Odd Fellows.

EL: The Odd Fellows. So I knew all about that before I even knew anything about the Masons. Would that be the oldest?

C: Probably because I have seen evidence of them being in existence in the 1890s. They've been around a long time.

EL: I think that organization would be older before, you know.

C: You said your parents, what was your maiden name? And their names?

EL: Ramey.

C: Ramey? What was your father's name?

EL: Robert Ramey.

C: Robert Ramey. How do you spell that?

EL: R-a-m-e-y.

C: And your mother's name?

EL: Katie Howard Ramey.

C: And she was part of the Household of Ruth?

EL: Yeah.

C: And he was a member of the Odd Fellows lodge for Christiansburg?

EL: Unh-uh. No, Wythe County.

C: Oh, for Wythe County. Oh, so you're not even from this area? But they were all over the place.

EL: Yeah, they were all over. But I just feel like they were older. Maybe there were Masons and [Eastern] Stars before their time, but I only knew about them, you know.

C: I've only come across evidence for the Household of Ruth and the Odd Fellows for the 1890s and up. I've seen evidence. And, in fact, they kept the Blacksburg 17:00lodge, kept referring to the Christiansburg lodge. We're going to have them over for supper or something and then vice versa. So that's how I knew that there was a Christiansburg lodge and sometimes they talked about the Elliston lodge.

TL: Right.

C: So, they kept referring to the Household of Ruth in Blacksburg would say, well we're going to invite the sisters from Christiansburg over and vice versa.

TL: That's the way they did it.

C: I mean, was it a great social affair?

TL: Oh, yeah it turned out [inaudible 30:38]. You don't see that.

C: Don't have that now, huh? Were people more together you think? More-

EL: I would say that people may be more together, but yet in a way they aren't. In fact, I say this [inaudible 30:58]. But, I guess that was at the beginning, you know, and as you come on down the line, I mean a lot of things we lose, you know. But I remember them how they used to have to dress and the [inaudible 31:09] and things they wore in those days. Those things that would draw your attention.

C: So it was a fraternal order?

EL: Yes, it was a real fraternity.

C: What were some of the benefits of being in that fraternal order, do you think?

EL: Do you think that was for--some of the benefits they had were I do remember taking them taking care of sick people. I mean, donating to organizations for sick people and things like that. Donating flowers and so forth.

C: [inaudible 31:42] insurance I guess.

EL: Uh-huh.

C: And sickness.

EL: Sickness. Uh-huh. I think it would be just about like the Mason's now and [Eastern] Stars. But it wasn't as great of an organization, I don't believe, cause if it was international then, I didn't know a thing about it. I know more 18:00about it being national and international now, you know, Eastern Stars.

C: I believe they were also, these organizations, were international. In terms of being in Jamaica and places like that. I believe they were.

EL: I can imagine they were.

C: Let's see. What other questions here? Any other things that stood out in your mind about--What about when you had to get some money? And when Blacks needed to have some capital and had to go get a loan. If you wanted to get some money from a bank in town, did you get treated poorly or did you get a good loan rate or did you get something not as good as you want?

TL: We certainly did. It was as nice as what you want [32:51]. And then they treated you just like any other person in there. The main thing was they wanted to know how you were going to pay it back.

C: If you demonstrated that you'd pay-

TL: Yeah, right and if you had somebody to back it up, you would work them, you got it.

C: Were there a lot of Black property owners in Christiansburg?

TL: There were quite a few.

C: I mean, like, owned a lot of land?

TL: That's right.

C: Could you remember some of the people and how many acres they might have had?

TL: Well, I don't know how many acres my dad owned before I left. But he used to buy [33:24] trades, so you see he didn't keep it all. [inaudible 33:30]. He was in that a lot.

C: So your father did a lot of that?

TL: Did a lot of trading. He'd buy land and trade it, buy land it, trying to make a few dollars. That's all.

C: Were there other people who did the same thing?

TL: There were other people, other Black people, yes.

C: Do you remember some of their names?

TL: Let's see now. There's Charlie Matthews. One he'd trade. And Will Robinson. He'd trade.

C: What was Will Robinson's occupation?

TL: He may have worked on a farm, I would say as a farm hand, I reckon you'd call them.

C: He just saved his money and bought land?

TL: That's right. Just bought land.

C: Just thrifty.

TL: Um-hm. [inaudible 34:08].

EL: [inaudible 34:10]

TL: Well, he ain't in Christiansburg. He was in Riner.

EL: Can't you include Riner because that's Montgomery County. Are you just including Montgomery County?

C: I'm including--Riner would be fine. Is he connected with Rice Dobbins?

TL: Yes.

EL: Yeah, they're cousins.

C: Uh-huh. I know Rice Dobbins came from Riner.

TL: Right.

EL: They were cousins.

C: So the Dobbins-

EL: Lots of land out there.

C: Was it Piney--what's it called? Piney-

TL: Piney Woods.

C: Piney Woods, right. So, there were a lot of Black land owners in Piney Woods?

TL: Back there, yeah.

C: Was that good land, good agricultural land?

TL: That's right.

C: What did people grow on those lands?

TL: Well, they had cattle. Then they had corn and wheat. Nothing but corn and wheat.

C: So they did pretty well?

TL: Yeah. More like raised cattle.

C: Well, I can't think of any other questions. Anything you'd like to add as we're about to complete? I want to make sure I got your name correct, Mrs. Lester. Is it Betsy?

EL: Well, really my name's Elizabeth, but everybody calls me Betty. So usually when I sign my name for business, I put Elizabeth and I put Betty in parentheses.

C: Oh, so it's Elizabeth Lester?

EL: Lester.

C: Okay so that's your-

EL: Ramey Lester.

C: Ramey Lester.

EL: So, you see Elizabeth R. Lester. Elizabeth Ramey Lester. And then most of the time you see a little Betty [Laughter]. Everybody called me Betty, and oh I guess four or five years ago that people found out my name was Elizabeth. And I said, well I'm going to start using Betty beside of it so they know it's the same person. So, I even had to put my checks-

C: Well I had an experience a few days ago. I was interviewing Burrell Morgan, and he started writing William and I said, William?

TL: [Laughs].

C: Well, on that note I guess we have concluded the interview, and I really appreciate your help.

TL: Thank you for stopping by.

C: Well thank you for helping me.

TL: Well I hope I did. I don't know.

C: We shall see. I think so.

[End of interview]