Oral History with Dolly Davis, October 24, 2014 (Ms2015-007)

Interview with Dolly Davis

Date of Interview: October 24, 2014 Interviewer: Jordan Laney Assistant: Claire Gogan Place of Interview: Lane Hall, Virginia Tech Length: 1:32:28 Transcribers: Claire Gogan and Jordan Laney

Jordan Laney: Well, this is Jordan Laney and I’m interviewing…

Dolly Davis: Dolly Davis

LANEY: Dolly Davis on October 24, 2014 on the campus of Virginia Tech. And Dolly, if you don’t mind, sharing your date of birth.

DAVIS: Yeah sure, it's 8-28-68.

LANEY: Thank you. And we want to begin - because we really want to get your story - by asking you where you were raised, and what you remember kind of just about your really earliest memories and upbringing.

DAVIS: Yeah, okay, so I was born in New Jersey in Montclair, right outside Newark and it was a different place, it was a place in transition. It was, you know, right on the cusp of the suburbs back in the 60's, grew up in the 70's, and I was exposed to a fair amount of things, but it was mostly suburbanite type environment.

LANEY: Suburban. So, in that town, what did most people do for work?

DAVIS: Well, in that town, growing up, it went through such a huge change that in the beginning I actually worked on a farm that was next to our house when I was, you know, for four or five years but at the end of me going to high school, there was nothing but four, five, six story buildings everywhere. So, it went through a change, and we came from a blue class, blue collar, middle-class family, lower middle class, and my parents just did blue collar work. My dad worked for New Jersey Bell and hung wires on telephone poles and climbed up and down and then later transitioned to doing the buildings and my mom helped deliver newspapers and paper routes. So it was kind of a modest upbringing, but others, other folks in our high school, you know, we had other components where 2:00they were brain surgeons and other things and lawyers, so there was a huge gap in economics where I grew up, with the four towns that went to our high school. So, a lot of everything. A lot of different pieces.

LANEY: And so what brought you to Tech?

DAVIS: Well, I wanted to come down south, the culture of New Jersey was more of a bubble culture, where people didn't trust people as much, and I really was yearning to find myself. Growing up I had some issues with my parents, they had some personal issues, and I never really got to understand who I was and Tech was a big part of that for me. Tech was the first time that I really stood on my own two feet, although I was somewhat independent and raised myself for a good portion. When I came to Tech, I really got the understanding of I could be who I wanted to be and I sort of was in the drivers seat of that. I wasn't sort of listening to other folks. So coming to Tech, I came to Tech for architecture. I 3:00went one year in New Jersey Tech, I went there and I lived in Newark New Jersey one year and I made it out alive- there was a lot of violence and gangs and things there that were not conducive to learning and I decided I would transfer during the summer program and come to Tech, and try to get in the architecture program through the summer initiative program and that's what I did. Back in 87.

LANEY: Awesome. And, and you studied architecture?

DAVIS: Yes.

LANEY: So what in-VT was an opening for you? As far as a transition from New Jersey?

DAVIS: Well, to get into the architecture program, I think there was 100 people that were trying to get 30 spots. And you go all summer and they said, 'you know what, look around, two or three people won't be here.' So that was intended to kind of motivate you and weed out the folks that thought, well, architecture was 4:00kind of like what it was on the Brady Bunch. You know, all these grand ideas but to get down to it and put the work into it. So, I got really serious and I did the work and, you know, I wound up luckily making the cut, got straight A's for that summer program, and wound up getting into the program. And I was in the architecture program in New Jersey Tech, so it was something I was pretty dedicated to.

LANEY: Awesome. So, before coming to Virginia Tech, were you part of a LGBT community, or did you know any folks who-

DAVIS: No, a little bit of background there. My dad has, probably to put it in a nice way, has got some preconceptions about all different other nationalities and LGBT folks. He grew up in a very close-minded society in Down Neck Newark in the ironbound section, so everything was separated by race and the idea of being 5:00gay wasn't even considered an option - you were mentally ill in my family. My dad was super unaccepting of anybody but white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, blue collar workers like him, and I guess that's the culture he grew up in. So through my struggles I had these feelings of being transgender since I was four or five. I tried to express them at home and it became very clear, they made it very clear to me that that was not something that was acceptable whatsoever, and that it was not something that was going to be done in their house, their home, on their terms... they didn't want to be a part of the social stigma, you know they clearly made me, made me understand that was not acceptable and that's how I grew up.

You know, they had found some of my clothes that I tried to express myself with 6:00two sisters and such and they did not take it well at all. So with that, growing up in high school there was no support groups, there was no such LGBT, gay/straight alliance around in the eighties. That's even in northern New Jersey where things are little more developed. So I didn't know that transgender people existed, I thought I was the only one and I was told it was wrong, so it was my shame to bear and it was something that was not acceptable. I was the only person there in that situation so it was really difficult at first, even when I got the Virginia Tech, there was no such support group for that - there was nothing. So I guess for the most part I went through looking for my own space and I couldn't find it. There was no space for me made, I guess so as I grew up and got older, I tried to find a way to make my own space and carve it out, and 7:00that's really where my journey began with my transgender acceptance and understanding of myself and then later on helping other folks come to that same conclusion within the safety and understanding and not being looked at in a negative way.

LANEY: Right, so when you began to carve out that space, did you have mentors or allies or a community or any friends that could help you here?

DAVIS: Well, at Tech I reached out to a few people. And...it didn't go well. Let's just say that. It didn't go well. You know, it was, those people have a little group over here, and Squires was shut down under construction the whole time I went to school, so there was no bits and pieces, they had renovations going on throughout so there was really nothing available to me, and I was so focused on 8:00getting my degree - I put myself through school so all's I did was work and go to school. And believe it or not, I was in a fraternity and I was sort of pledged by some friends in New Jersey Tech and it transferred over and I then I wound up meeting some folks and I kept trying to find, trying to be the person everybody wanted me to be, be that "boy." And I really never understood male bonding and all that other stuff. I'd always wind up in conversations gravitating towards the women and having talks about relationships and I always felt forced learning the 'bro code' or the male bonding and that kind of roughness that they deal with. I'd get my feelings hurt and recoil, and back and forth. I guess I really wound up trying to give it the old college try so to speak at being a boy when I was here and all the resources that I could find which were none and the folks 9:00that I did reach out to were - even student relations, they looked at me like deer in headlights and I didn't even know the right words to put it, but when I'd try to explain it, they were like 'no there's nothing for you people here' and that's the word I got "you people" and it's always been a "you people" scenario... until lately.

LANEY: Wow. So there weren’t many spaces… so how has your self-identification process evolved or how do you identify now?

DAVIS: That's a great question, cause all transgender people are different. There's a spectrum. I don't represent everybody, I represent myself. All our journeys are different. Just like LGBT folks are different from mainstream, I think you've got a spectrum no matter where you go and really the one thing on 10:00my journey I've realized is everybody's got their differences and everybody's got some similarities. And my journey really started after I got out of Tech. That little thing called the internet. Of course, I went through school without the internet, which I'm sure most people now think is 'wow, how could you do that?' and I realized that I wasn't the only one. I realized that there were other people out there that had gender issues and I'd never known what it was like not to have gender issues, I just knew that I'd better hide them or I was going to get picked on or beat up like what I did in school until I "manned up" which is a phrase I really don't like, you know, just "man up." Why do I need to be your version of me, why can't I be my version of me so the internet made me realize I wasn't the only person. Then I started getting on chat groups and 11:00such, but in that time I got married... you know, wanted to start a family, started a family. I have two wonderful daughters. They're the love of my life and they're my biggest responsibility. They're nine and eleven right now, and I have a great relationship with them and I've come out to them in the last couple years and they're dealing with it relatively well, but you know, they're kids, in a society that doesn't so much accept everything. They're a little bit concerned that they don't want to take on the social stigma that is current today, that's something I want to keep them away from.

But back to the question, 'how did I come out?' I came out little by little. I think you come out a hundred times, you come out to this person, to that person, but mostly, you've got to come out to yourself and coming out to myself was a struggle. I went to therapy to get over some of the issues I had with my 12:00parents. They're alcoholics, my mom gambled a lot. I had a very unsupportive, fractured childhood, so getting over those issues, the counselor really wanted to focus on that and said "no no no your gender issues are not that. Clearly it was something manifested from the stress of your childhood." But you know what, a lot of people have more than one issue in their life and you can't do that.

So through somewhat reparative therapy I was told that I need to train my mind to be "a guy" and train my mind to see myself as a guy with a girl and go through these steps and it was almost like saying a prayer every night, envision yourself doing this and I tried and maybe I convinced myself, I know I did. I convinced myself to a degree that I could be that person that these people said I needed to be. Well they're professionals, you know. And eventually, I found 13:00out that they were wrong.

You know, I figured I could believe everybody else or I could finally let go and believe myself and I think putting myself out there and believing in myself was probably the biggest revelation and the biggest shift and the biggest coming out to myself that really defined what was going to happen later on in life and really defined how I was going to gain happiness, because I wasn't really getting happiness. I was just treading water trying to be what everybody else wanted me to be, cause you know clearly everybody else in all their education knows that there's no such thing as gender diversity, there's a boy and a girl and you hear all these family groups that tell you that and these politicians that claim that's it and all these religious entities that say "God says this" and they'll slam their hand on the bible and tell you that you're going to burn in hell. Clearly, you don't want to burn in hell and you want to please your parents and you want to fit in to society so if you're going to do all that, the 14:00only clear answer is to be how everybody wants you to be and that was a huge life struggle and that's not unique to me, that's common to transgender people in this time and space. So yeah, it was a struggle.

LANEY: Wow. Thank you for sharing. Yeah so not a lot of support at Tech and not a lot of publications or communities?

DAVIS: Yeah and not a lot of help from the mental health folks at all. I guess the folks I reached out to were definitely not trained in this. I mean, this was something you could see "Well I don't know, I've never met a transgender person before" this is what they'd all say. So I wound up taking it upon myself that, well, you know, there were no gender counselors in Roanoke at this point, so I 15:00took it upon myself to kind of reach out and I finally found one that just moved to the area and I started seeing Andy Matzner, MSW, really sweet guy that had some gender experience, gender diversity, and he was the first person that said, "you know what, it's okay to be yourself" and that was pretty powerful. I mean, that was real powerful. That it was okay to be me and there might be a space out there for me to not feel so conflicted with who I was. It was really the pressure was I guess who I wanted to be. I had all these feminine feelings but I had this male persona which I got really good at being - I could bench two hundred and forty pounds, I did triathletes, you know I became a guy's guy and I garnered the attention of a lot of women and the closer I got to that the emptier I felt. And I don't know how to put that but, the relationship side of 16:00it, more people, I had more friends, but it was less meaningful because I didn't feel like I was totally honest, so I wound up coming out in Richmond.

My wife sort of after some struggles and understanding what the gender therapist was saying, and this was ten years ago at least, on this journey of actually deciding I was gonna - I couldn't ignore all these feelings that what was inside of me couldn't be wrong. I had to figure out, I needed to talk to transgender people because all these counselors didn't get it on the inside, they didn't have that perspective, so I wound up looking up somebody online on this internet and somebody agreed to meet me that never knew me before. It was a transgender Yahoo site, kind of a support group and long story short is I went out in 17:00Richmond and I met some people that were transgender and I went out as myself, which was a very raw, juvenile way of dressing myself but I didn't know, I didn't have those kind of mother/daughter relationships. I didn't have the girl relationships that kind of help you figure out some of these social clues and it was obvious that all these other transgender people didn't either. I mean, we grew up without the support of the mother/daughter relationships, the girlfriends that would help kind of bounce ideas off. So in this sheltered way I started coming out, and I met a girl named Nova who was a really - she was happy with herself, she was transgendered and she was out and she was in Richmond and I still keep in touch with her today and she was a great friend and she was one of the people that I really looked up to because she seemed to be farther along on her path of understanding of what this all was and I really felt a kinship to 18:00her and she just took me in, knowing me from nobody. I would drive four hours from Roanoke to Richmond and I'd spend a weekend with her and some transgender folks once a month in Richmond and at First Fridays at Fielding's, which was a gay bar that's closed down since but, that was really the first transgender support group in the state - there was none. I looked all over, and I'd searched high and low. Like you know we need one of these.

But there wasn't, so the First Fridays was the first transgender support group structure and culture that developed in this state. And it covered a spectrum of folks that were cross dressers, just kind of dabbling with it part time to folks that were living full time that had the surgery and it was really eye opening, it was really eye opening, to kind of see how these people made their space and 19:00how they bucked society, so to speak, to listen to the voice inside them and kind of hold their own values true and knew who they were and that was a strength that I really thought was beautiful, I really did. And learning, I just wanted to learn as much and I really appreciated those people paying it forward and I wound up having a couple year friendship with some of these folks before they moved off or before finally the economy went down and I couldn't afford to get a hotel night for Friday and Saturday and spend a couple hundred dollars in gas and a couple hundred dollars in hotel fees, just to hang around with people so I could feel like I was myself. But that process was really important to me and I never forgot that, I really never did.

LANEY: So Nova kind of helped with that relationship and served as kind of a mentor?

DAVIS: Yeah, and not so much a mentor like "I'm going to tell you what's right" 20:00but as a mentor of "you know what, I'm going to lead my life the way I want to be, you lead your life the way you want to be" It was really a mentor on a parallel level to say, "you know what, you only get one life, and live it because there's no dress rehearsals and figure it out and you've got a friend and support to do that here" and that was really, really important to me.

LANEY: And you've come back to Tech and I'm wondering if you've served in that roll, to pay it forward, if you're doing that for people now?

DAVIS: Yeah, so, I guess, going forward, coming back from Richmond, I decided there had to be other folks in Roanoke area like myself that would get together for support because I couldn't constantly go to Richmond and then Nova wound up moving away and there was a few other people, and I met other people too, but I 21:00guess - you know I don't want to give out too much personal information, but I met other people too that were in pretty important places in their job and in their career that were struggling, lawyers doctors, and other folks in Richmond that I would wind up connecting with ten years later, working on projects with Virginia Tech now, and they're in the state level in the health department, you know, some of the highest decision makers, which is great but in that process, I decided there had to be other transgendered people like me and I wanted for me to get that support but also to give that support back. So I looked around and I wound up connecting with a couple of people and there was two other people that had that same desire and I emailed one person and one person got back in touch 22:00with me and what we did was we cofounded a transgender support group early on and it was actually started in Roanoke and in Blacksburg and our first meeting was in the Blacksburg UU Church, and that was like 7, 8 years ago. A girl named Tazzy Zurek and Erica Joyner were the other two co-founders.

LANEY: So about 2007?

DAVIS: Yeah, 6, 7, somewhere in there, probably.

LANEY: at the UU?

DAVIS: Yeah, and we met there and of course, "I'm going in a church, I hope I don't get arrested," you know and I still had fears of going out as myself, because I had a lot of negative experiences, just going out shopping and getting the 'oh no we don't server your kind here, our clients don't want to deal with that.' Well I thought I was a client, I thought I was a customer, and to hear the managers of the store say that, it was clearly "this space isn't for you." So I didn't know how we would be received by the UU and showed up to an empty 23:00church we used the rectory and I soon learned that those people were accepting and found other people that were really going through similar stuff and there was a core group and other people, of course we understood there was people that had negotiated that and transitioned fully, you know, from the news, and at this point had the internet, but...

I made some... Dana Murphy. I met her and she was a good friend... She was a staff at Tech and she was a PhD and she was teaching and, you know, we struggled together and we were friends together and she was a big reason that Virginia 24:00Tech started to have transgender awareness. She came out, she was the first staff member to come out at Tech and she was a good friend and I want to focus on her because she means a lot to me but she's passed away now, so. She transitioned and she went through her struggles here at Tech and she did it bravely. She did it when she didn't have that much support. Later went on to become the head of the LBGT Caucus and she invited me to later on speak at the Lavender Ceremony. And I was so proud of her for getting to that point and we had lost touch, she had had an illness with some cancer. She had a near death experience with cancer and we came back and became good friends again and this 25:00all came out of the support group years later, but the connections we made several years through that support group really were a strong bond.

And you know, I became the president shortly after the support group and had my initiatives and really got really active as an advocate and missed her and thought she just needed to lay low for a while. But we connected again and with all my advocacy and the support group, she wanted me to come talk for the Lavender Ceremony and I did. It was one of those times where they were redoing 81 on the interstate and they were blasting and something went wrong. I left two hours extra to get to the Lavender Ceremony to speak and I was in gridlock for two and a half hours and I was going to miss speaking. And I called her up and I said you know "I'm doing my best" and I wound up, my friend did a U-turn on 81, 26:00drove across one of those utility things and we came the back way and she held the spot so I could speak and that meant an awful lot to me to kind of reach out and as an alumni be engaged again in Virginia Tech and that was really my first engagement back into Virginia Tech as Dolly, as myself, and it meant a lot.

We had lunch, Dana and I had lunch and we caught up on all her struggles and what was going on in her life, her illnesses and my illnesses and our struggles and it was really important, not only that I did it, but that I did it with Dana, because we had been through so much. And that relationship, her health 27:00turned bad shortly after and she didn't have a huge support network and I wound up going to the hospital and I was there when she passed away, the last three days and it was really tough to see her like that but I wouldn't have missed it for the world to be there to support her.

That had a big effect on me. That had a big effect on me. Her reaching back to me, seeing how she had success here at Tech and all the people that loved her at Tech expressing that. I guess at that point, I knew I was going to be more involved in Tech and I wanted to, one, keep her memory alive and everything she was doing for transgender and connect everything I was doing for transgender support in Roanoke and the New River Valley and connect it and that's really, sort of how my real connections with a lot of the folks, with Jean Elliot who's 28:00been wonderful and Catherine Cotrupi was doing wonderful things and you know, Dr. Lewis. There's just so many people here at Tech that have really helped support LGBT in their open mindedness. And that was my first step into this door, so without Dana, I don't know that I would have made that step. So she was a really important figure.

LANEY: She was really a bridge for you to come back and re-enter, but also it seems between the community and the students here, I mean the community that didn't have support before...

DAVIS: She meant a lot to me, she was a good friend and I hope she's remembered well. She wound up getting her PhD posthumously, and I was there for that at the 29:00last year's Lavender Ceremony and that meant a lot to me to see that Tech acknowledged her achievements, her involvement and her as a transgender individual. But she opened the door to me that people were more open minded than they were when I came here, so I got a completely different view and perspective of what Virginia Tech might be about because when I came here it was a very different school, it was a very different culture, and it was very different series of values being presented and re-enforced and that made a huge difference.

LANEY: So that was around 2008, when you spoke at the Lavender Ceremony?

DAVIS: It was three years ago, maybe. It was probably 2010, maybe 11. I'm not 30:00sure, somewhere in there.

LANEY: Ok I remember reading that. And so you, you've gotten involved with VT - I've been kind of keeping up with the healthcare stuff that you're doing in Roanoke.

DAVIS: Yeah

LANEY: And I was wondering if you wanted to talk about your activism there and then what your plans are, and possibilities for Tech, and how we can bridge that?

DAVIS: Well sure, and I think to answer that I may need to go back and talk a little bit about the Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge Transgender Alliance.

LANEY: Oh yes, yes

DAVIS: Because that was the platform that I - we changed names a few times, but when I became president of that, I think we decided to go in a new direction, that it was going to be open to all genders, which it wasn't supposed to, but some folks didn't agree with that, but Ladies and Gents started out Ladies of the Blue Ridge, and then it morphed into Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge.

LANEY: Okay

DAVIS: And that was really important, because what we did is a local outreach to 31:00transgender folks. And we kept having meetings and people kept coming and slowly we started paying back, and making friends, and I saw it as my mission to be somewhat of a positive face for transgender issues in the community and the first place I wanted to start was the LGB community. And I got involved with Roanoke Pride and I later became a Board of Directors. I was Public Relations and Marketing Director. I was the social committee organizer, I did a lot of things and slowly built up some trust in the LGB community in Roanoke and then meeting people, you know, getting out socially was great for me and getting that social support and acceptance. And that social support and acceptance gave me the confidence to be around other folks and do more with the group.

LANEY: So you started Ladies and Gents of the Blue Ridge. Were you a founder?

DAVIS: Yeah, a co-founder.

LANEY: The co-founder. And what were the few first meetings like?

DAVIS: They were beautiful and scary all at once. I mean, I was finally going to find friends in the area that I could trust and that could trust me to have similar experiences and share things and talk about things that we couldn't talk about or weren't allowed to talk about with other people. How we saw ourselves different, and some of our different perspectives and struggles. You know, we all have different struggles, whether we be married with kids or single or had a series of financial, health, or professional struggles around transgender issues and trying to find - we went and talked to police officers and had them speak at 33:00our meetings. Tried to let them know that, you know what, what do we do, we're all scared. If we want to go to the bathroom, what do we do? And the officers were like, well, I guess legally, there's nothing saying that you have to use the men's or the women's, but if the owner of the establishment complains, we may have to put you in jail. Because if they complain and tell you don't do that and you still do it, then you could be arrested. That's correct. And it's tough to understand that something as simple as going to the bathroom could create so much anxiety and tension and depression about not being yourselves and the one thing - the common thread we all shared - was being depressed and having this anxiety of going out as who we were in fear of safety.

Several people had some issues where their safety was challenged or compromised. 34:00On several occasions. Whether it'd just be name calling and, you know, 'you're a man in the women's restroom, you're a freak,' this or that. Having rude people try to call you out and make a joke of you, or whether it's actually getting physically harmed and having to go to the emergency room - or not - because you're afraid how you're going to be received in the emergency room. So there was a lot of different things that we shared and that group was people trying to find out who they were and learn from each other, and just find friendships.

And that's really the beauty of the group. And number one it is a support group, and then it evolved to an education, where we were trying to educate everybody and let us know we were here, and educate those around us. And then, more so advocacy. We were going to advocate for ourselves. And not everybody in the group wanted to do that. I became more the advocate. But it was a platform where people can come together, get information, share it, and feel like they weren't 35:00the only person. It was really important to me and I'm really proud of the group and where it's come and how many people it's touched.

LANEY: Is it still active today?

DAVIS: It is still active today, and to bring it kind of full circle, I've had the opportunity through Dana and some of the other experiences at Tech to come back and find that, you know what, they're wanting to know more about transgender people. They're not looking at us as somebody that we need to usher out of school and get off campus. And they're not going to arrest me for being on campus because I'm dressing how I feel versus what may be between my legs or who identifies me as what at birth. And understanding the open-mindedness at Tech was getting there. I decided that networking would be great and I wanted to network our group - a community group - with Tech, and people were very - some people 36:00were very accommodating, and some people - you know, I might have been the first transgender person that they ever met and I could tell they were very nervous. But after we started talking they were all, 'okay well I guess you got a degree so maybe you're okay, you're not mentally challenged or your intelligence may be to the point, or okay, you have a conversation so maybe you're not challenged. Maybe you're just like us.' You know, and try to break down some of those walls and build bridges. And the goal was to build a bridge between our group and the multicultural group here at Tech, and it worked. And Jean Elliot and Dana were wonderful helping me get started with that, and hearing some of the stories and later moving on to some of the other folks - Dr. Williams and Dr. Lewis - and some 37:00of the other folks in Multicultural, and just spreading out and having them understand.

And so one of the first big leaps of faith at Tech was that we wanted to have a transgender conference. And we wanted to invite someone by the name of Michael Silverman, who was a transgender advocate. He was a cisgendered male, he's gay, but he's the CEO and the founder and president of Transgender Legal Education Defense Fund. And there was a case in Denver about a little girl, a trans girl, about four or five, that started getting some attention, and when she went to school, she wanted to use the bathroom, and she was allowed to. And then all of a sudden, the school shut her down and said no you can't come to school, you can't use the bathroom, and he fought for her rights. And I really thought that that was important because it's not just grown-ups that are struggling with 38:00this, it's kids with less voices and there's folks in nursing homes that can't dress the way they want and they have to portray themselves, or people dress them, and they have to be who other people - so it wasn't just me but it was the whole society was kind of - there was a segment that was underrepresented and struggling.

So we wanted him, and there was another - Janeane Russian - who was somebody I met at the SCC [Southern Comfort Conference] and she was president of Vanity Club, a member of a group I was with. We decided we were going to have them speak at a transgender conference and we were supposed to do it at the MCC [Metropolitan Community] Church in Roanoke. And lo and behold, there was a scheduling conflict, and their social hall was taken up by something else. Something that they had signed a contract with a play group that took precedence. So then we went to Hollins College and we were trying to struggle with them, and Patty 39:00O'Toole, the Dean of Students, was very great and gracious, and she offered us some funds to do it and a space and eventually through Karen[sic] Cotrupi and Dr. Williams in Multicultural, found out that we could have it here as well, and then it became a wonderful dilemma of a choice between two colleges. And Tech felt right because I was an alumni at Tech, you know. I went to Cowgill, I got my, you know, I slept in Cowgill, I got my degree just like every other architect student, you know, walking around bleary-eyed, and had a little bean bag under my chair. Tech meant a lot to me because it's where I sort of came out to find out I could make decisions about who I was, and it was a rebirth. It was a coming out as a person. Not so much a transgender person, but a person, and then I really felt strongly that I wanted Tech to be a part of it. And so we had the first transgender conference in the state, that I know of, here at Virginia 40:00Tech. And it was with Michael Silverman and Janean Russian, and some of the folks in our group had a panel discussion, and it was really well-received by some of the folks, and they welcomed us back again.

LANEY: And you mentioned the SCC?

DAVIS: Yeah. SCC is the Southern Comfort Conference.

LANEY: Okay.

DAVIS: It's the largest transgender conference in the world and it's many things to many people, but there's over a thousand people from all around the world coming to this. I met people from England, Germany, Australia, people that couldn't speak languages but just smiled, and made friends with people all around the world. It's funny, just like in anything else, people gravitated towards people that were like them, so all of a sudden I saw the transgender people that were gravitating towards education and ones that gravitated towards socializing, or ones that gravitated towards support groups, or ones that 41:00gravitated towards their careers, you know, the doctors and lawyers, and I'm an architect, so kind of an educated way of looking at things. There were some folks that were struggling in the blue collar way and would never come out in public, but you saw those people make those alliances and kind of support themselves. Not to mention all of the other educational seminars that went along with it.

So that was a big thing for me and I wound up making a great set of friends, and realizing that - I guess during the SCC, that was one of the things I realized - okay I'm transgendered, but it's my choice on what I'm going to do about it. It was the first revelation going to that, because I made a friend, Sherri Williams. She's a pilot in the Air Force and she flew F-15s. She was a decorated pilot and here she is, I'm sitting there talking to her, and she was 42:00in the same way, she didn't come out at work, she was now flying in the private sector, but decided right now, she had a kid, she had a wife, we were in, gosh, we were in the same spot. But to her, and same to me, our kids were our most important consideration. And having those conversations and finding those people to support you and understand that, you know what, I don't have to transition, I can be the girl I want to be in the situations I want to be in and then if I have to play boy, or if I have to dude up for society's acceptance so I can have a job and support my family, that that was okay, and tried to make it as easy as possible on myself to do that. And I learned that from her and some doctors and lawyers there, that wound up - I was like, wow, there's some very educated folks that are in this. It's not just, you know, which reinforced my views that this 43:00is something completely - this is not nurture, this is nature, just like every other faction of life, you know. There's from blue collar to everything else. And that's probably one of the things that makes it hard for us to get together and have a voice, because we're all so different. But the SCC was another a-ha moment, another coming out that helped me along on my journey.

LANEY: Mmm hmm. Southern Comfort.

DAVIS: Yeah.

LANEY: Do you want to speak about motherhood at all?

DAVIS: Yeah, um...

LANEY: The difficulties, or...

DAVIS: Absolutely yeah, and that was tough. Having kids was something I really wanted, but I waited until 33. I had other things to get over from childhood and I knew that, so me and my wife, we thru-hiked the Appalachian trail, and we said, you know what, we're going to do that, and when we get back from the hike, 44:00we're going to start a family. And we did. One of the things that had a really big impact on me was when I realized I wasn't the one pregnant, so to speak. And dealing with the emotions of seeing my wife getting to experience the ups and downs of pregnancy, which there's a lot. I saw a lot of downs with the morning sickness and the weight gain and the swollen ankles and the mood swings, but also the idea of carrying a life inside of you and having a higher purpose, and knowing that you're going to help this life along was - I struggled with that. I struggled with that, and that struggle was really - that kicked off a struggle and an enlightenment that was really going to grow and turn into me not being able to be the same ever again. Holding both my children, I'll never forget doing 45:00that, was something very special to me. And I appreciated the father role I had, and being transgender doesn't mean that you're all girl or all boy. I'll never be 100% female and I'll never be 100% male, no matter how hard I try to be either. So, you know, I have to be balanced. What balance is right for me? Forget what society thinks. I don't have to, well if I'm transgender, I need to fit into this other hole, if I'm not a square peg, you know, male square peg, if I'm not a female circle peg, I don't need to go from, I don't need to shave down and become a circle peg. Maybe I'm an octagon. Maybe somehow I fit differently.

And raising my kids, I found out that there were certain things that I was better at than my wife, that were non-traditional male, more traditional female 46:00stuff. But after my first child, that was when I realized I couldn't, actually when she was pregnant, I realized I couldn't ignore being transgender anymore. My wife knew I had some desires to dress up during Halloween and stuff, but then I sort of came out to her shortly after and that's when I started going to Richmond.

LANEY: Mmm hmm

DAVIS: But I don't want to relinquish the title of Dad, because I did father them. But I would like to, I don't want to take their mom's title because their mom's a good mom. So what label is left? I guess, again, labels don't fit. What really makes me do this activism is my children, but I don't want to get into 47:00that yet. Struggling, my wife knew I was transgender and still wanted to have kids, so we had another kid, and then we wanted to have three or, and I said well maybe two is enough because it was very tough on her health. She was in her mid-thirties at that point. But it really awakened me to the responsibilities of - financial responsibilities - to my family. This was something that I needed to provide for and there's nothing like holding your own child to get you the weight of - feel the weight of - you know, people look up to you. People depend on you.

And that was something that I enjoyed, but something that I felt very sad that I couldn't experience it on my terms, but I had to just be that male figure. As time went on, that male figure got farther and farther away as I grew to understand who I was and express my feelings of femininity, emotionally much 48:00more than physically, but physically as well. I started developing relationships with other friends and getting those girlfriend-girlfriend relationships of doing stuff and other, older transgender people, and kind of modeling maybe a little bit of that mother-daughter relationship. And you know, I realized that that was something that I wanted with my daughters and I never had. And that was kind of sad. But I realized I was going to define that relationship, and there's certain things in terms of empathy, that my daughters come to me for, versus my wife. And she's got some masculine traits that, as all people do, we're all just a mosaic of different characteristics, so I found out which ones I was good at and which ones I wasn't.

But my kids made a huge impact on me and one of the reasons for starting the 49:00group - one of the reasons for starting the group was - well, here's the problem. I want my children, they're by far the biggest responsibility and the most important thing in my life, I want them to be proud of me. And how are they going to be proud of me and love me if society tells them that I'm not worth loving, that I'm not worth being proud of, there's no space for people like your dad in this world. And that was tough. How do you be proud of yourself and how do you share something with them that most people, including their mother, my wife, wasn't very open to? She goes, "I don't believe in it. I don't believe in transgender. That's your choice. I don't believe in it." Like, "I don't believe in unicorns."

So, I guess, the problem was, I didn't want to lose my daughters. I didn't want 50:00to lose that relationship. I needed to be who I was. I needed to express that and be proud of myself. I needed an opportunity to succeed and celebrate. I didn't want to lose my daughters in the process. My wife didn't want me to let anybody know. I talked to other people who said the sooner you tell them, the better, so they can understand who you are fully and not hide stuff. A lot of my friends have lost all contact with their kids and that would crush me. That's not something that I'm prepared to do, is lose my kids out of my life. So, wanting them to accept me and be proud of me, and I didn't want them to absorb all the social stigmas and the societal pressures of being the child of a transgender parent is not an easy thing in today's society. I didn't want to put 51:00that on them and my wife wanted to protect them from that as well. And when I look about this, there was only one solution, that I had to change everybody else's mind.

And that's when the support group sort of became an activist group. And I decided from that point on that I was going to do whatever I could to help change other people's views because I met so many beautiful people, so many strong people, and so many humble people that have been mistreated, and really for no reason, shouldn't have such a positive attitude. There were a few people that had that positive attitude. I wanted to emulate that because I knew that they were proud of themselves. Knowing that I wasn't the only one, I wanted to advocate for them and us and so the advocacy really came, that was the other 52:00part of the advocacy, I wanted to advocate for myself and all these other people, but also my daughters. I guess the best way to put it is, you know, there's no answer to the problem other than activism, advocacy, and hope. So sometimes the right answer is not the most convenient, and it wasn't convenient for me, but if you want to right answer you got to accept it, and the answer was to be an advocate. That was the only solution and I had to acknowledge that answer. That was the only way I could carve out a space for myself and also carve out a space for my kids to be proud of me as a transgender parent maybe hopefully in the future.

So, that's what I'm trying to do. With that, I spoke at Tech, I've lost count of how many classes I've spoke to, I've spoke at maybe fifty classes on panels at 53:00Tech and Hollins and Radford to students, to grad students, to pre-med students, and to doctorate students, and to undergraduates, to let them know what transgender people are about and what struggles we have. And just that one opportunity is such a gift that I think the school gave me. It's a lot of money, it's a lot of gas, it's a lot of time. But luckily I've worked my way into my own business where I have flexibility to do that, so I've had that opportunity and I've built on that, and I hope to continue to help change minds and hopefully other people that I change can then effect change and it can keep cascading because there's a lot of good people and if you pre-judge somebody on a gender difference, it hurts more than just that person. It hurts that person, 54:00it hurts that person's family, and maybe their daughters. It effects a lot of people around us. And transgender people are already here, we're already in the community, we're part of the fabric, it just makes sense to have a healthier community, to accept everybody. I don't say accept people that hurt other people, I'm talking about accept people that are struggling with their gender issues, and so my daughters help me understand a lot. I learn from them and been out to them for a couple of years now.

My wife still is not acceptant, she's tolerant, and we're in the process of getting separated and divorced because of it. And I still struggle and that struggle is... very hard. That's one of the hardest struggles I'll probably have 55:00in my life. It's the struggle with the potential of losing my children, for no other reason than social stigma and pressure that my wife--is afraid of what the neighbors think? Is afraid of how she'll be perceived? That's probably the toughest part of it.

LANEY: Your daughters have a lot to be proud of, though.

DAVIS: Well, thank you. They don't understand it yet, but they've seen pictures of me with Governor McAuliffe when I was campaigning with Terry McAuliffe and Mark Herring on the democratic ticket, and that was a year and a half ago. I just saw the Post, and I didn't even know the article came out. For, you know, 56:00gay marriage. And I don't even know what I'd be considered if I'm gay, because I consider myself a woman and I'm attracted to women, so I guess, yeah, okay, I'm gay. I'm a lesbian. I don't know what I am, but you know, if you need a label. So they saw those pictures and I try to tell them what I do, because my wife won't. I don't want them thinking that I'm not-- the reason I came out to my kids was my wife didn't want to be a part of my transgender life so she, again, in an accusatory way, thought I was having an affair, or maybe accused, well my daughters thought I was having an affair, and that crushed me, so I told my wife that I was no longer going to honor her wishes of not coming out to my kids and I told her I was going to come out, so I took them on a canoe trip, and I came out to them because I didn't want them to think that of me. That I didn't care, 57:00at that point. That that was not something I could accept.

So I came out to them at that point and I tried to explain a little bit about the group and my position. They just see me as somebody that's going to help other people but maybe taking time away from them. So the balance is really tough. With my wife not understanding, she doesn't paint it all in the greatest light. When she sees pictures like that or knows that somebody as prestigious as Virginia Tech accepts me, I think they understand that maybe it's not as odd. Maybe it's not as unaccepting. Maybe people are going to change. And that's something I really appreciate through my alliance with Tech and my alliance with other organizations that have social credibility, that help me have social credibility, which helps me have a stronger relationship with my kids, and 58:00hopefully when I transition here shortly, I'll be able to keep my job as an architect that's running their own business in Roanoke. I hope.

LANEY: I do, too. Do you want to speak about the work you're doing right now in Roanoke? The healthcare?

DAVIS: Sure, sure. There's so many different - one great thing about being a transgender advocate is there's no wondering what the needs are. The needs are great. So, one of the things we decided to do is get a statewide project. I decided there needed to be a statewide project to go ahead and identify some of the needs of the community. So, we started two state projects. One was Project Visibility. It was a photo essay to try to humanize the transgender experience. 59:00And while we're doing that, we should probably get facts from all of these people and have a census, and do a transgender census, or survey to see how we can help people the most. Because clearly now I had talked to governor candidates and stuff that we may have an opportunity to talk to these people. So, on this survey, one of the things that came up: jobs, health, education, but healthcare was a big spike. As for me, I couldn't find a healthcare provider in Roanoke to deal with my transgender issues. I had to go to Richmond.

LANEY: A general practitioner?

DAVIS: Anybody. Nobody, when I asked, you know, they were like 'um, okay, no, yeah that's not going to work.' Then I finally found a general practitioner that was going to go ahead and see me and try to get me help and they said, "you know 60:00what? There's nobody within a hundred and fifty miles of Roanoke that will see you for hormones. There's no endocrinologist, we're sorry. We've called a dozen people and we called three different health networks on this side of the state, but Richmond was at that time the only folks doing that." And there's so many other health issues, not just, you know primary care, the social stigma of going in the office, and so I had made it to the point where I'd gone to Dr. Alan Burruss, who is a wonderful, accepting ally to our community in Richmond. He was working with my doctor at that time in Roanoke.

So, out of those two projects, and all that information and meeting all those people, a lot of other people had those same struggles. A lot of them. And ... umm ... not all of them made it. The suicide rate ... the suicide rate is very high. 61:00Forty percent of the people that are transgender have attempted suicide. And that was also reflected on our - that was a nation-wide study by National Center for Transgender Equality, and our study reflected that as well. And I tried to take my life at one point as well. So, I knew it was a struggle that a lot of people had. And I thought I might be in a position to help. With the information from that study, and with the information of meeting all these people across the 62:00state that I traveled to - Richmond several times, Virginia Beach, Charlottesville, Northern Virginia - there was a need.

And I had gotten kicked out of my doctor's office because the doctor that I was seeing moved and, at that practice for seven years, I had gotten another doctor, and she was new to the area, and she was great. She transitioned my care and monitored my hormones great. Well, she only stayed around a year and a half, and from family issues moved to Northern Virginia. Well, at that point, my doctor wouldn't, you know, they found out that my doctor in their practice was prescribing these hormones. And I present as boy, I never presented transgender there, because I had to for my kids and everything else. And they asked me to leave the practice. They said that my ... issues were so sophisticated and so 63:00different and so specialized that they were not trained to deal with me. And I said, "well no no you don't understand, but Dr. Burruss, here's his cell number, here's his personal cell number. He will talk to you and tell you these are the blood tests I need, if you have any questions about them, these are the ranges that they need to be in, any questions, feel free to call me and, I want to help Dolly get the care so she doesn't have to drive from Roanoke to Richmond." And they were like "no, no you don't understand. It's too, it's too difficult." And there's an issue. They don't want - they can't have too many transgender people in their waiting room, because all the other patients would be uncomfortable, came from some of the comments off the record. And quickly after I wanted to get a 64:00prescription refilled for my sinuses. So I called up the nurse who was replacing. And they said "no no no, you don't understand. We're not your doctor anymore. You're going to have to go somewhere else."

And that's when it really hits you, and I asked for a letter, and they wrote me this letter which didn't reflect everything they said. They said, due to my transgender issues, they couldn't be my doctor, and I needed to go to Richmond. But the underlying message was, we don't want to treat you. And there's no space or place for you in our healthcare network. And I was upset. I was real upset and I wound up calling Carilion. And I'd called them before, but I'd just so 65:00happened to see a magazine for Carilion's health, and who was on the front cover, but Nancy Agee, she was the new CEO, and I said you know what. So I called up the general number and left a message on her voicemail and said, and I'm sure she could probably tell I was somewhat upset, but I was very professional, I said, you know, that I'd like to discuss transgender healthcare. There's a lot of folks in our community that need healthcare. I was just kicked out of my doctor's office and would love to - well, it went to her, to Trinity Best, which is her vice president, then went down to Eric Earnhart, and long story short, a meeting developed. And out of that meeting, the needs of our community, I showed them all these things from Project Visibility and Transgender Census, of all these people around the state. And, to my surprise, they got it.

LANEY: Mmm hmm

DAVIS: They understood. It was amazing. I didn't feel like I was talking to 66:00somebody that was going to go try to appease me and get out of their office as quickly as possible. That they actually heard me, and they heard the fact that they need transgender physicians and they didn't understand that our community was in the position that it was. And that in Southwest Virginia there are probably about a thousand - they asked me and I probably put the number at about a thousand, anywhere from what our group handles in this state. And that became the understanding of the need of our community and how they could help. And we're still working on bridging that gap between our community and health services. And out of that became the birth of the transgender clinic in Roanoke. That was huge for us and that gave so much hope to our community, when they 67:00agreed that not only are we going to help find you somebody that will help treat your stuff, we understand the needs and we're going to help everybody. And that was kind of what I asked, this is not just me, it's our community, and they were going to respond to the needs of the community.

LANEY: And that happened really recently, right?

DAVIS: Yeah, that happened in this past year. I started talking to them about this last fall, a little over a year ago. And then we started talking and finally got meetings done, put together in winter, and by spring, they announced that they agreed to help start a transgender health clinic.

LANEY: That's awesome.

DAVIS: And there was nothing more elating than knowing that a difference was going to be made in our community. Not just for me, but for everybody. And that was something that was huge. So, they asked me to stay on to be part of the 68:00board, and to help educate them as a community leader. And I actually had a conversation on the drive up here today with Eric Earnhart, who is the Director of Communications for Carillon, who is leaving Wednesday. And he's been my contact helping me start this transgender health clinic, so I'm a little nervous, but also I'm not nervous in the fact that, he's coming to work here at Tech.

LANEY: Oh!

DAVIS: And he's going to work for Dr. Sands, and he's trans-friendly. I'll be working with him on this side as well. And so I got them to okay working on the clinic, and then I quickly reached out to a lot of other people around the state that I knew. The folks in Richmond, the Fan Free Clinic. I knew a lot of people there. And being a state-wide advocate for several years, four or five years now, I've made a lot of connections. And I wanted to find out who was doing what with healthcare. And the only folks that I knew of was Fan Free Clinic. And I 69:00got in touch with them, and I brought them in as, I started assembling a bunch of resources to help out this transgender clinic, and wound up assembling folks from them, and I really wanted to bring in Tech, because, again, Tech is at the heart of me coming out and me being myself and me becoming educated and me being accepted as transgender, and that means a lot to me on a lot of levels. And I reached out, and at first I didn't get a whole lot of response, but I'll come back to a story I told you earlier. In Richmond, there were some people that were really prominent in society that were dealing with their transgender issues. Well, I made a friend, and one of those friends is now the state health 70:00commissioner. The number 1 in charge of state health.

LANEY: Wow.

DAVIS: And I reached out to her, Marissa Levine. We had spoke at Tech before to pre-med students. And we had kept in touch for ten years. I was so happy and proud of her, I can't tell you the words, the admiration I have for her for coming out and being such a strong person, and having other people understand through her transition and her tough times, and through the bias and the prejudice, who she was. And not she was in a position to help. She lent a wonderful hand and got me some other telephone numbers to deal with. And I got Cinda Johnson, and then I would up getting back in touch with Karen Sanders, the chief diversity officer here. And I met with Karen Sanders, and she's wanting to be on board, and I talked with President Sands at the VT Inclusion. I waited on 71:00line to talk to him about it, and followed up with Karen Sanders who is on the executive committee of his new Virginia Tech diversity and inclusion program. And I told him that I really want to take this thing one step further. It's not just a transgender health clinic I'm after now, it's a transgender health network in the state. Because, what became clear is that there's a couple other folks trying to now start transgender health clinics. We're all like chickens with our heads cut off. We don't know where to get the information, how to do it, what are the legal processes in the state, what are our resources.

LANEY: Right. Right.

DAVIS: And so, in organizing some resources, Carillon brought in Planned Parenthood. I'm bringing in VA and I really wanted Virginia Tech, and they showed up. All these people come together, and I guess my motto, and what I told 72:00Carillon was, I'm not looking to picket, I'm looking to help organize and be a resource. Good people do good things. I said that's really what I want about. I told them my first meeting I would love nothing more than to be sitting in a press conference telling them, we had some transgender clinic going on, and that good people were doing good things. It was six months later, eight months later that I was doing that exact thing. And I still am in somewhat disbelief in my lifetime that I've seen that happen. It's like saying we went to the moon. You know, playing with a rocket in your backyard and saying ok now we're on the moon. It's that big a shift. I really can't overemphasize that enough. And with all these people in the support groups that cheer you on, but also some of them say "you're never going to make a difference, Dolly. Dolly, you're never going 73:00to make a difference. I've tried, I've got burnt out."

And these people before me that have tried and beat their heads against walls, I think they need to be celebrated and appreciated, too, because they made a space - whatever space I took advantage of - and had the privilege of having, they helped. Sylvia Rivera and her speeches, talking about, you know in the 60's, about being a transgender woman, and that we need help and support, all the way up to some of the folks that are local leaders. Not one person can do it, it's really a community, if anybody can step up. I see myself in a role as carrying on what those folks started. And it's really important to remember everybody that's been on the struggle, and watching some of the people in the community, 74:00and the folks, who say, "you've talked to the governor-elect, and then the governor, and what do you you think?" I said well, you know, I think that things are going to change. That they seem, they seem encouraged that things are changing, and this was before, this was way before the Marriage Equality even gained popularity. And then to see that come about was just amazing.

I guess it gives us hope that, you know what, people are changing, and you see the numbers. I think 71% of people under thirty now think that gay people have the right to get married. 55% all over, but that's a staggering number. To know that, right now we're there because, when I went to high school, if you said you were gay, you'd have gotten beat up, and I was assumed to be gay, I had some 75:00effeminate traits, and I got picked on, beat up, and all that stuff, and just knowing now that people accept that. And some of the younger folks I deal with in groups and stuff - I've been through so many support groups and outreach programs, and we had our first diversity camp last year for LGBT, and I was a transgender counselor. It was the first one in the state. We made the paper. And just to see that, you know? Roanoke Times, front page! You know, times are changing. Teen camp for LGBT folks at Weeping Springs in Craig County. I'm seeing things change on a big level. I really can't be more optimistic and proud, there's a lot of racism and a lot of prejudice out there left, but just to see progress really helps a lot of us. And helps ... helps the community.

And, you know, if I can do something to lift the community's spirits, and if 76:00other people like that do it, I mean, just to look in the eyes and know the depression and the anxiety and the hopelessness of people that are in our community that deal with these issues, and their family members that don't accept. And be called "freak," and be on disability because they can't get a job, no one will hire them, they got no education, they've got no access to these things, but just to see they understand, "wow, this is changing." And, you know, I guess if I can share that or be a part of that, I think that's probably where my energy is spent most of the time. I spend 20 hours a week doing non-profit stuff that takes away from my family, that they don't like. But hopefully it pays off in the long run and it's something that means an awful lot to me, and for those reasons. And I'm hoping to, at some point, merge those two 77:00worlds with my family and the advocacy, and acceptance by both. And have my daughters be able to be proud of me and to go to their soccer game. Right now, I can't go to their soccer games. They would have a heart attack. As my true self. I still have to play a different gender role to support my kids in public. And to make a living, and I hope one day that other people don't have to do that.

LANEY: Wow. So many good goosebumps doing this.

DAVIS: Yeah.

LANEY: Thank you so much. Is there anything that I haven't asked that you were expecting me to, or...

DAVIS: I think we covered a lot of it. There's so much to it. It's just like life. There's so much to it. It's how to live your life within a framework of 78:00misunderstanding and within a framework of being oppressed and not having privilege. Most people don't understand why I would give up male privilege. Most people don't even know what male privilege is. I didn't understand what male privilege was until I stepped out in the world as my true self. I got the sense of, wow, even when I do pass as a female from an encounter, I'm still not treated the same as when I was male. I had all these privileges and opportunities. And it really made me look at the world in a different way. I believe I'm a better person for it. I know I'm a better person for it. I'm a more understanding person. We're all different.

The last line of my email - during the Lavender Ceremony I wrote a speech, and that speech was based on this encounter I had with a student talking at the panel. And I'll never forget this encounter, because she said I changed her life, my life story changed the way she saw transgender people, and we corresponded for a while back and forth. And I thought, how lucky am I to have the opportunity to speak to this student and change their perspective and educate them, but also pass that knowledge on. And in the bottom of my letter, I said something to the effect of, 'if I'm really lucky, I'll be able to help people see the beauty in each other without fearing their differences.' And to me, that's the key to helping society. And that became part of my speech in the 80:00Lavender Ceremony for graduation and that became my mantra at the bottom of my email. So, for several years now that's been it.

I'm optimistic, but I'm a realist. I know that I need to be safe. I can't put myself out there too much without jeopardizing my safety, but I think in the right arenas and the right places, I'm proud of who I am. I'm proud of who I am no matter what, but I'll express it more and I'm hopeful for the future. I'm hopeful that Virginia Tech will help me become who I need to be and support me in the ways that I need to be supported, as an alumni, or just as a community member. That they'll value the work I've done, as they have valued the work I've 81:00done, in the transgender community and just in the diversity community. Just to be a representative of a community that's not understood.

I sit on the multicultural alumni advisory board, that was a big honor for me to be accepted as a transgender alumni, and next weekend is our biannual meeting. So, I'm excited about the future, and I'm excited about the relationship I have with Virginia Tech and the hope that I have that the community and the college, and Virginia itself, will learn to appreciate and see the beauty in transgender people. So, that's probably what I'm looking for and that's where I'm at right now.

LANEY: Wow.

DAVIS: I'm hopeful.

LANEY: Yeah. Thank you. We've covered all of my questions, I think. I could 82:00listen and talk all day, though.

Claire Gogan: Yeah, I could, too! [Laughter]

DAVIS: And I appreciate, I know this didn't get on the tape, but I appreciate you guys capturing the oral history, because the one thing we had a conversation about is, the transgender folks, we've got a culture and a history. And now that we're sort of - I don't want to say becoming the new hot topic, with Laverne Cox getting on Time magazine the cover, was awesome.

LANEY: Yeah.

DAVIS: You know, our group helped bring Janet Mock here with the multicultural alumni, she's another national speaker, is awesome. And those folks are part of the culture of who - the transgender community has a culture, just like the American Indians had a culture, and African American people had a culture, but 83:00what I hope is that people see our culture for what it is. Because there's a rich culture of love and support through all this oppression and struggle. And there's some really beautiful moments, and people doing beautiful things. And to let everybody see that, not everybody could possibly see that because it's such a private community, but it exists, and there's leaders there that have struggled and gave up a lot to help. And now that it's becoming popular, some of the LGB groups that are larger don't understand that. I'm struggling with Equality Virginia right now, and there's been struggle with HRC, of kind of supporting transgender people and then, we're not going to support a bill that 84:00has transgender inclusion, we're going to pull it off. We know we took your money for three years and said we were, but we're going to pull it off.

LANEY: Who's that?

DAVIS: HRC. The Human Rights Campaign. They're the largest national diversity organization that's fighting for equal rights in the US right now. So, they said they'd support us, but then they didn't. And that hurt a lot of people and broke a lot of trust. And now that transgender issues are becoming prominent and people are saying, yeah, we have to do something about it, there's grant monies available. Sometimes that grant money goes to people that have other agendas. That grant money - 99% of that grant money is not going to transgender people. That's going to folks like HRC that is run by a white, gay male, who has the most privilege in the LGBT community. And that’s going to Equality Virginia which is run by, guess what, another white male with a lot of white privilege. A lot of male privilege.

And some of the struggles I'm having now, which I'm trying to overcome, is the fact that we want a voice in what our future is. It's not okay for these other groups, driven by these other folks, to be our voice. We want to be our own voice. And in a conversation I was told, we are your voice, we're giving you a voice, now be quiet. And that was a few months ago by one of these state-wide organizations. And I have a problem with somebody telling me, still to this day, "I'm giving you a voice, now shut up." We are going to tell you, we're going to define your culture and how you gain equality, and we're marginalized so much. To be marginalized in our efforts, in our strife, in our journey for equality is something right now that is really the current and the most poignant struggle of 86:00our community. I think we'll get there, we all know we're going to get there, but we want to get there, and we want other people to know who we are. We don't want other statewide groups picking up whoever they want, letting them be a mouthpiece for the ideas and the agenda that these other groups have. We need those groups to support and give us a voice and I hope that that happens. And that's what I see, and our culture hangs in that balance. And that's why I thank you both so much for being a part of this project and really getting a snapshot of the transgender culture, in 2014, here on campus, from an alumni that's been through a lot and has seen zero support to some really hopeful stuff in our community.

LANEY: What would you say to a student in 2014 on campus right now who was struggling, maybe out, maybe not, but kind of in the position where you were?

DAVIS: And that's great, because each student is in a different place. Some students, I've spoke with hundreds of students across the state and they're all in different spots. Some of them have great support systems and some of them don't and more often than not, they don't, or their parents don't know. They ask me, "how do I come out to my parents?" That's huge, and everybody's different. I don't give them an answer, I try to let them make that decision but kind of talk to them. But if I was going to tell them one thing, it gets better. It gets better. Be yourself, 'cause I struggled and tried to be somebody I wasn't for 88:00forty years, and I sit here in front of you, at least physically, and emotionally now, as somebody who I am. And that difference makes all the difference in the world. I can't tell you why gender makes such a big difference to me, but it does. I am wired differently. And most other people are wired differently, but to understand that there's a space for every type of gender. Facebook came out with twenty-six different ways to label yourself, that's awesome. But I think society needs to catch up, and I think Virginia Tech needs to reach out to these folks and let them know it's okay. Because I know they're there. I've been dealing with transgender students at Virginia Tech for years now, and we just started TransSpace, and hopefully that stays, but there's been 89:00several attempts at transgender support groups. So I'm trying to help support that support group. But, that there are organizations here that will support you ...

[Sounds of VT Corps of Cadets conducting a drill outside]

LANEY: We may want to

Gogan: Close the window

LANEY: The cadets are doing their, I'm sorry

DAVIS: It's okay

[Tape paused]

LANEY: The TransSpace you created here

DAVIS: So what I would tell a student, first off, make sure they're okay, make sure they're safe. First off, their safety. I want to make sure that they're safe, in their mental space and their physical space. Because right now, there's still a lot of self-hating going on. There's a lot of unacceptance of who they are, and that comes out in our culture of getting hooked on drugs. It comes out in our culture of being in abusive relationships. It comes out in our culture of dropping out at Tech. It comes out in our culture of ways - cutting is really 90:00prominent, it takes their mind off of one hurt and puts it on another. If I could give them a little bit of safety, or find them to be safe, then give them hope that, you know what, it's going to get better, the struggles, the struggles are worthwhile to be who you are. Whether it be - you got to put yourself out there. I can't put that enough. You've got to be comfortable with putting yourself out there with who you are, because if you're trying to be somebody you're not, you're always looking for the answer somewhere else than inside you. And there's no more depressing thing than knowing that someone else is in control of you, and that you can't be yourself and celebrate who you are.

Transgender students are just people questioning their gender. I hope that 91:00they're in a safe spot, and then given an avenue to be on a journey that helps them get the understanding for them to live their life they want to be. And find out where they fall on that gender spectrum, be happy with it, and celebrate it, because there's so many people that come to a point in their life that they realize they can't deny their gender anymore, and it's hard to do when - a lot of people say, well, I'm going to wait until I retire and a lot of people don't transition until they retire. That's crazy. They have to live their life, and then they have these relationships, and then they hide stuff and it works on them. Depression, anxiety builds up, and other bad things. I'd love to see them own it earlier on, have an opportunity to get support and own it, and celebrate it, and have other people enjoy and celebrate their differences with them. I 92:00think that would be awesome. I think that would be what I would tell any student in the future.

LANEY: Thank you so

Gogan: Thank you, yes

LANEY: Anything, Claire? You have to add?

Gogan: Umm

LANEY: We've got so much

Gogan: This is a fantastic interview

LANEY: [Laughter]

Gogan: [Laughter] Thank you so much

DAVIS: Sure. Well, I'm glad.

LANEY: I can't wait until...

DAVIS: So that's the rehearsal? It wasn't plugged in? The batteries died?