Oral History with Caroline Ickes, July 9, 2015 (Ms2015-007)

TRANSCRIPT: CAROLINE ICKES

Date of Interview: July 9th, 2015 Interviewer: Megan Lee Myklegard Place of Interview: International Studies Abroad Office, Austin, Texas Length: 22:31 Transcribers: Megan Lee Myklegard

Megan Lee Myklegard: Hello this is Megan Myklegard it is Thursday, July 9th, 2015 we are in the International Studies Abroad office and I'm here with Caroline Ickes. Would you like to introduce yourself with the date of birth and place of birth?

Caroline Ickes: Yes, I'm Caroline Ickes. Date of birth was March 28th, 1987 and I was born in Beckley, West Virginia.

MYKLEGARD: Wonderful. So can you begin by telling us how were you raised and talk a little bit about your life history before you got into college?

ICKES: Mhm. Yeah so I'm from West Virginia, from Louisburg, West Virginia. It's in the south eastern portion of the state. I'm probably about ten, fifteen minutes from the Virginia border so culturally very kind of rural country small town is where I was from. But we were kind of different than a lot of the small towns in West Virginia because there's a resort, the Greenbrier really close to 1:00Louisburg which brought in a lot of people from lots of different cities and who have specifically chosen to live in a small town and have that particular lifestyle. So while it was very rural and you know we're living in Appalachia it was a very cultured childhood. You had a lot of interactions with— there were a lot of hippies in our town. There are a lot of, kind of, really alternative lifestyles in terms of people living off the grid or people living in treehouses and out in the farms and kind of interesting things. But large and part it was a pretty middle class rural community with kind of like sprinklings of interesting groups. My family's very religious, my father's Catholic and my mother is charismatic Catholic so it's kind of evangelical mixed with Catholicism. So she was very, very active in the church the youth group, we were too. We did a lot 2:00of Catholic and Christian summer camps, conferences things like that. And so I would say that was a huge part of my life before going to college and then that bled into college and a lot of the groups and things like that that I chose at Virginia Tech.

MYKLEGARD: How would you describe your quote-on-quote 'clique' when you were in high school?

ICKES: When I was in high school, um it was very— they called us the granola group. Cause that, I guess I don't know if that's a term any more, but it was— we were kind of theatre, music, the kids who went to the thrift stores and picked up old blazers and t-shirts and stuff like that and kind of made outfits out of it. In our free time we liked to kayak and hike and spend our times outdoors. Most of my friends were musicians or artists.

MYKLEGARD: When was your first introduction to the LGBT community?

ICKES: Um, middle school. I had a really good friend who everybody assumed he was gay and at that time he wasn't identifying as that. And I remember I had— it was myself and I think another couple of girls who were really fiercely loyal to him and defensive because even at that age we knew that it was something that somebody could ascribe to somebody else. I mean, we thought that if that was something that he— if that was a lifestyle he wanted that was what he wanted to identify as it was his opportunity to do that. So I think probably middle school like eighth grade.

MYKLEGARD: Being in a religious household, did that ever effect your mindset in relation to LGBT issues?

ICKES: Yeah absolutely. Um I think at the middle school time I was still— I think maybe at one point I identified as republican and that was very much aligned because of my mother and the religious influences. And so a lot of 4:00things I just kind of went along with, kind of the prescribed set of beliefs and in terms as the LGBTQ community and attitudes towards that group.

MYKLEGARD: When you got into college how did you become a part of that group, if at all?

ICKES: Yeah um, so in college I was really close with a campus Christian organization. I had always wanted to get involved with the church when I was in college so that was something I did right off the bat. And in that first orientation week I did all kinds of activities went to different speeches and introductions and groups and different parties and organization events, one of which was— I forget what It was, but the president of the LGBT group was speaking at the event— and at that time it was Michael Sutphin a good friend of 5:00mine now who— he was the president and at the same time I was checking out different churches. Then I saw Michael at one of those church events and I think honestly that was the reason why I chose that church group because it was like "that's awesome. He's the president of the LGBTQ community and he's a part of this Christian group on campus," so I thought it was really interesting that those two had converged and that's why I chose to be in that Christian group as well as. Then I get to know Michael and his friends more— that's how I knew John, that's how I got to know John Gray. And then I guess it was in grad school I lived across the street from a lot of people in the group, friends of Michael and John Gray's. So that was my first interaction, was through the friendship with Michael and John Gray that I got to know a lot of people in the community.

MYKLEGARD: Did you ever consider becoming a part of the LGBTA group?

ICKES: No, I think even in my undergraduate career at Virginia Tech— I did undergrad and graduate school there— I was still trying to figure out what kind of— how I wanted to contribute to the community or gay rights issues. I still wasn't sure how that aligned with my Christian beliefs, and those evolved a lot over the four years to where now I'm very pro gay rights and I do feel very strongly about it and kind of maybe moved more from that kind of conservative Christian mindset and have a more hybrid view of how they can intermix with each other. So at the time I was still wrestling with a lot of it, even though I was very good friends with them and ultimately I think maybe became an ally in the Christian organization for LGBTQ students. Maybe, to that degree.

MYKLEGARD: Can you go into a little more detail about your evolving beliefs? Like how did your beliefs start when you entered college and just kind of like walk us through how the evolved.

ICKES: Yeah. I think at the beginning of college again I was kind of it was a script more so that it was like "okay if I'm a Christian then I believe that people choose to be gay or not.' I think that's where I began. Becoming friends with Michael and John and all kinds, and you know a bunch of their friends too— Curtis all kinds of people, my beliefs evolved pretty quickly. [I understood] That it wasn't an individual choice and then that caused me to question a lot of the assumptions by the Christian groups— that to attach that [being gay] to sin or whether it's right or wrong. So it took me awhile to concretely figure out how those changed, but I think when I studied abroad [laughs], which is ironic because I work for a study 8:00abroad company, I think that's when it kind of pulled me out of my element. When you're abroad you don't have your group of friends, you don't have your family around or people who know you and assume you have certain beliefs and suddenly you can be anybody you want to be. And so I think it's a really interesting opportunity to kind of like reflect on why you think certain things and why you believe certain things and that made me more comfortable to identify as a Christian as well as an ally for the LGBTQ community.

MYKLEGARD: Did you ever partake in any events that were put on by the LGBTA community or do you remember any going on?

ICKES: Yeah I did largely just to support my friends. I don't know a specific well— I don't know specific names of them. But I went to—like there were Drag Races and different talks that they put on, I think I went to the Lavender 9:00ceremony when somebody graduated. So just a wide variety depending on which one of my friends were putting it on and who was going to it.

MYKLEGARD: Do you ever remember any of your friends, who were in the LGBT community, do you remember them speaking to you about any negative experiences they had at VT or did you yourself experience any?

ICKES: I think one of the biggest probably transformative experiences that I had— and a lot of my friends in the community had— was actually when I was in grad school, or maybe it was right at the end of undergrad, that the Christian organization that we were a part of on campus— one of the pastors came out as same sex attracted. So they had kind of a long series of talks about how he became this way and that he was seeking therapy, conversion therapy to get rid 10:00of his same sex attracted tendencies. At that time there was a pretty significant group of LGBTQ students in the Christian organization because it kind of started, you know, I think once you realize "oh, okay cool this church is open and it's kind of accepting' more students joined. So pretty large group, and when they started this series, a lot of us— and I mean it was a pretty sizeable group— stopped going to the church and had pretty intense discussions with the pastoral staff or the staff of the church about why they were choosing to present it this way in such a public forum and how it could be very damaging to students who have not come out, or who are questioning, or who have tendencies with depression that this idea of conversion therapy and presenting this same sex attracted tendencies in that way was very damaging. So I think probably that 11:00was the most negative thing that I experienced, because it was, I mean a large part of my life and a lot of these other student's lives this Christian organization. To then find out that after a few years they had this pretty concrete belief that they had not kind of come out publicly— I don't know I think it affected people pretty strongly.

MYKLEGARD: Did you ever experience any backlash from your parents or other friends or members of this Christian group who knew you were an ally?

ICKES: Mhm, um [laughs] I think everybody; I think it got to a point there was a lot of debates and discussions about is it a choice is it not a choice and then how does that then relate to sin and if you're choosing to sin and there were a lot of discussions revolved around that. And not necessarily backlash,just always wanting to change my opinion and kind of argue it. So I think 12:00because of that I became less vocal about my opinions of how the church should relate to matters of the LGBTQ community and just made it a personal choice rather than something I was going to try to convince other people of, or try to convert them to my opinion. So it was never a negative backlash, but it definitely changed the way I expressed my opinions to people of the Christian faith.

MYKLEGARD: How would you describe the level of comfort that your friends felt in like this Christian group as well as just at Virginia Tech as a whole?

ICKES: Just like comfort or comfort with like the community?

MYKLEGARD: Comfort as in they felt like they could express themselves and be 13:00open about their sexuality?

ICKES: Mmm, yeah. That's interesting. I think there's a lot of things about southwest Virginia that maybe inhibit that, but I found a lot of people once they found a group and felt like they were accepted then you saw a lot of people coming out and being more open and transparent about, about their preferences. As far as the Christian group, no I think the people who— especially the people in the LGBT community— who were in the Christian organization they were very open. They felt very comfortable to be themselves and express themselves, especially before kind of that thing occurred. Yeah they were very open they didn't feel like they had to restrict themselves or hold themselves back. But as far as like Virginia Tech as a whole, I think it's important that once they find 14:00the group then people are more comfortable. And maybe that takes a little while, but I've seen a lot of people be very transformed once they meet the group and then feel that they can express themselves freely.

MYKLEGARD: Do you find yourself in any sort of LGBTQ community now in Austin?

ICKES: No, I participate in kind of the Aids walk, different events, but more in a social setting in Austin not so much as a— in an advocate role. And that's more just because of like my friends, if they're supporting a group or putting something on I'll end up going. So it's not anything really purposeful at this moment.

MYKLEGARD: [pauses] I forgot what I was going to ask I had a really great question.

ICKES: [laughs]

MYKLEGARD: Do you still keep in contact with any of the friends that you had in Tech who were in the LGBT community?

ICKES: Mhm, absolutely. Yeah um John Gray, Michael Sutphin, there's a few that I have fallen out of touch with, but I do go back to Virginia Tech pretty often and I end up running into a lot of people. It is kind of interesting because out of all the friends that I had in college, yeah, some of those are the ones that I keep in touch with the most.

MYKLEGARD: How would you compare, even though you aren't a part of like a large community here, how would you compare the LGBT acceptance in Austin with Virginia Tech?

ICKES: I think in some ways it has a lot of similarities because Austin is a 16:00very liberal place and there is a really, there's a good community here. But because it's Texas there's just a lot of barriers. There's some really antiquated laws that still exist that don't protect as much of a lot of other liberal states. And so in Austin— like I know from speaking with some of my friends who are gay that— they said the social scene here is much more, like that you have to discover it and once you do then you know that there's a huge community. Like I had a friend who moved here from New York City and he said it was so different because it was so apparent in New York City kind of where you went, who were your people, what groups you could be a part of, and where the community was. Austin it's a little more hidden and you kind of have to find it and once you do there's this huge community and I think that that's probably very similar to Virginia Tech. Because of those— I mean it's a conservative 17:00state as well— I think Virginia and Texas have a lot of things that are similar and that you kind of have to dig a little and once you see that community you see that okay it's actually much larger and has a lot more to offer than you may initially have thought.

MYKLEGARD: When you were a part of the LGBT community at Tech was there ever any time where you had any feelings of guilt for being straight? Like was that anything that ever came up in the friend group?

ICKES: No, I don't think so at all no. It was pretty interesting because definitely in grad school I spent a lot of time with members of the LGBT community socially and a lot of times I was the only straight person and I never felt, I don't know, I never felt out of place it was a very open and welcoming group. Yeah.

MYKLEGARD: Alright, I only have a few more questions left. To you, what does the 18:00term ally mean, or indicate?

ICKES: Um, to me. I think to me it's just being a supporter of the community of friends of gay rights causes, of being willing to have conversations about your opinions and to be open about it to others I guess. That's what an ally means to me.

MYKLEGARD: [laughs] How would you identify yourself? I mean you immediately said you were straight, but I didn't ask outright. How do you identify yourself?

ICKES: Yeah, I identify as straight.

MYKLEGARD: Okay, is there anything—now this is kind of a broad question, so take it however you want. Is there anything that you would like future historians to know at Virginia Tech?

ICKES: Future historians [laughs] uh no, I don't know off the top of my head.

MYKLEGARD: Alright so can you just give me an overview of your experience at Tech and the friend group you had outside of the LGBT community?

ICKES: Mhm lets see, at Virginia Tech—I was there for six years, and had kind of a couple of different groups during that time. When I first started I was in the residential leadership community at Virginia Tech so a lot of my friends were a part of the RLC. And I lived on campus my second year with more RLC students. So it was a lot of people who were really motivated in a lot of leadership positions, a part of a lot of student organizations and groups on campus. So it was very common for my friends to be a part of like five different student groups and have really full schedules and be taking an overload of courses. Then 20:00my friends group probably shifted more to the Christian group I was a part of that was— well not shifted, but maybe that included it more towards like sophomore year and junior year. And that was a large base of my friends. And then I studied abroad and when I came back it was kind of my core groups of friends was kind of a mix of a lot of different circles and was smaller than before, but it was kind of like those core people. And then in grad school, let's see, grad school was a lot of people that I worked in the study abroad office with. And then people that were in my cohort as well as kind of connected to us and grad school I had a lot of friends who were kind of doing like physics PHDs, language PHDs, PoliSci, so that was a pretty big group of friends too.

MYKLEGARD: Is there anything that you thought I would ask during the interview but I haven't yet?

ICKES: [laughs] Um, no. I don't think so.

MYKLEGARD: Okay awesome. Well if you don't have anything else to add then that would conclude the interview for me.

ICKES: Yeah, well let's see I think the one thing I think for me— I don't know if I've ever identified as an ally, but I think having John Gray kind of identify and say—you know in asking me to do this interview— kind of made me think more about— kind of made my friendships and roles at Virginia Tech and how that influenced me and how that kind of influenced the people I was friends with and that was one of the first times I thought "oh, okay yeah maybe I was an ally and I just never considered it before." So that was pretty interesting to me and 22:00maybe highlighted how much I don't talk about my personal opinions and beliefs now, and I should more because I think that that's where the biggest amount of change comes is when you talk about your personal experiences, friendships, connections, relationships and how that has transformed your beliefs and opinions.

MYKLEGARD: Wonderful, alright thank you so much.

ICKES: Thank you!