Oral History with Leola Burns Alexander Burford, March 11, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Michael Cooke: Today is March 11,1991. I am conducting an interview with Leola Burns Alexander Burford of Christiansburg. Mrs. Burford, could you give us a brief sketch of your life, your birthday, birthplace, education, and occupation?

Leola Burford: I was born July 31, 1894 in this house in Christiansburg, Virginia. I went to school on Rock Road. It was a one-room school there, taught by Mrs. Belle Bentley. She was a native of Christiansburg, very fine lady. And we went to the sixth grade there, and later on there, a school was built, a 1:00brick school was built next to the church, on Zion Hill. And we went there after we finished on Rock Road.

C: Is that called Hill-?

B: Finally--It's called Hill School. Finally, they tore down the school on Rock Road. They discontinued that school entirely and started to send all of the students up on the hill. We had to walk about three miles to school every morning, and this went to the sixth grade. After we finished the sixth grade there, we went over to the farm school.

C: The farm school was-

B: The Christiansburg Industrial Institute. It was at that time.

C: It was a farm. Can you remember anything about the origins of the school, how 2:00it got started, Christiansburg Institute?

B: Well, yes, it got started by Captain Schaeffer, Captain Charles A. Schaeffer. He started it on the hill, and later on he bought land. There was an old farmhouse there, mansion house it was called, where the master of the place lived in. And that became a classroom, that old house became a classroom. And later on, Captain Schaeffer, he got Mr. Marshall to come from Tuskegee Institute. Mr. Marshall brought with him several teachers, and they started out at Hill School. They lived up on the hill, and they started there. And then when they bought this property, they started the farm and living on in the old places 3:00over there. And they built one building first, then they built several. There were several buildings. But Mr. Marshall died, and Mr. Long, who came with him, became the principal of C. I. I.

C: Was he also connected with Tuskegee?

B: Yes, all of the teachers at that time came from Tuskegee. Mr. Marshall brought them up here with him. One was his sister, and then Mr. Long brought his wife. And Mr. Marshall brought his wife. I have a picture of them, too.

C: Oh. I think I've seen a few pictures of them-

B: You have?

C: By the way. But do you recount ever seeing Booker T. Washington?

B: Yes. I was there when he came down. He came down to see what could be done with the school, what they could do about it, because it seemed like it was--the person who had charge of it--seemed like he wasn't doing very much. And Mr. Marshall was asked to come and see what could be done. He came and he started. And he brought these teachers with him, and he started out. And the school began to grow, and more buildings were built there. They had a hard time because in the summer, they said the teachers, they stayed there, they had to work on the farm. Most said they had salad. [Laughs]. And then they had started to 5:00raise hogs and chickens and cattle on the farm, that worked the farm, had horses, too. Then, when Booker Washington came down here, he had to come--there was no train. He couldn't come on the North Western. He had to come on the Virginian, which was called the Virginian at that time, and they had to go over to Blacksburg to meet him. So-

C: Do you remember some of the people who met him at the train station?

B: My grandfather and two uncles.

C: What was your grandfather's name?

B: James T. Carr. And he and two of his sons, and then several other men. There was a man here that owned a whole lot of property. He had a delivery stable down 6:00right at the corner, on this side of where the ABC store is now, a great big stable.

C: Was his name Matthews?

B: No, his name was Childress.

C: Childress. Was he Black or white?

B: He was white. He owned a whole lot of land 'cause my father bought this place where we are now from him. He was very good and would allow for negroes to buy. Sometimes you couldn't buy property. But he allowed them to buy property. And all out here, out this way, were negroes, uh-huh, and their homes. All out here. It was prosperous at that time. It wasn't so prosperous for me because [in] the winter time, the winters were so cold! All the ponds would 7:00freeze over. Eight inches of ice would be on these ponds a lot of times. And my grandfather had an ice house. He would go out and cut ice and put it in his ice house.

C: Did he sell the ice commercially?

B: No, no.

C: It's just for the-

B: He just put the ice in there to keep his vegetables and milk and things like that. He built a house, and he put the ice in and put the straw over top of that, and then they'd put vegetables down in there. Had to be very careful, too, because when it thawed, when it began to melt, they had to be so careful in going in there, in the ice house. But they'd go around and cut ice from the different ponds and all. And then he had to grub new ground, what they called new ground. He'd go out and dig up the roots and things on these places and cut 8:00down trees, and my brothers worked with him.

C: So people did farm work, things of that nature, in this area?

B: That's right. They did farm work.

C: Did they work in the mines in this area?

B: Well, not very much. Blacksburg, there was mines over there, but several people worked in them mines. I don't know of any Black person working in there-

C: And that's this area?

B: In this area.

C: Let me ask you another question, do you remember Booker T. Washington--did you listen to the speech that he gave?

B: I was too young to understand what he was talking about! [Laughs]

C: Oh, you were just too-

B: I don't know how old I was. But anyway, I was sitting down on the ground in front of the stage where he was.

C: You remember how many people might have been in attendance?

B: Oh, there were a lot of people. I don't know, but there were a lot of people there.

C: A hundred or two hundred?

B: Yes, maybe two hundred, might have been more than two hundred were there.

C: Were there mostly Black people or some whites?

B: Well, some whites were there, too. Some whites were there, too, to hear him.

C: So it was a big affair?

B: It was a very big affair. They had that, and then they had lunch. I don't remember the lunch, but I'm sure they did have it. [Laughs] And then they took him back over there on the horses.

C: Did your father and his sons-

B: My father was dead at the time. My father died when I was five years old.

C: Oh, I see.

B: Yes.

C: Oh, you're talking about a relative?

B: My grandfather and uncles-

C: Oh, you grandfather?

B: Went over there with him, and they went back on horseback. They took a horse over there for him to ride over. [Laughs].

C: Was he well-dressed, what could you remember? Was he well-attired? Or that's so way back that you just can't recall.

B: I can't recall but I think he was from the pictures that I've seen of him.

C: Yes, I've seen them, too.

B: Yes, he looked just like those pictures.

C: Good.

B: Yes.

C: Well, talk about your education at the various--when you went to Rock School, 10:00was it just a one-room-

B: It was just one room there up to the sixth grade.

C: How many students do you think were in the class?

B: In my class, in the school, there were about forty or fifty, something like that.

C: So, it was a good number of people.

B: Yes, but I don't know how many was in my class.

C: And it was just one teacher?

B: One teacher.

C: Was she originally from this area?

B: That's right, she lived in this area. Not in this area, she lived down on what they called Depot Road, right across from that mill down there.

C: Yeah.

B: She lived right across the street on the opposite side.

C: Depot-

B: Depot Street-

C: Neighborhood.

B: Right there on the corner. And the road that's there now going up here, that's where they had a store there. Her husband had a store, and, well, they 11:00did a whole lot of things 'cause there was a barber and he sold food and something else in his store.

C: What was his name, do you remember?

B: Bentley, Mr. Bentley.

C: Mr. Bentley?

B: That's right.

C: So he was one of the Black businessmen-

B: That's right.

C: At the time. I guess there were several others, too.

B: Um, no, there was a barber, Mr. Pate. He was a barber, but he was mostly white barber. But he would do colored in the back of his house. [Laughs]. He had a shop for the whites, but for the colored, he would take them in the back and cut their hair sometime when he had time.

C: I see. Well, let's see. Talk a little bit more about your Christiansburg Institute experience.

B: Well, when I went there, they didn't have all of the buildings that they had. 12:00They just finished Morris Hall. When I graduated, I think our class was the first class to have their exercise in the school building because it was always too small. The graduation exercises were always held in the First Baptist Church. That's where the commencement exercises was always held there-

C: Is that a Black church?

B: That's right. Church was right beside Hill School.

C: Is that Schaeffer?

B: That's Schaeffer.

C: It's now called Schaeffer.

B: That's right. It was Schaeffer at the time. No, it wasn't Schaeffer at the time, either. It was just called Memorial Baptist Church. But, later on, one of the ministers--Reverend Alexander--while he was pastor, he said that it ought to 13:00be Schaeffer because Captain Schaeffer had organized it--had built the church, had come here and bought the land, and had built the church--and it should be called Schaeffer. And at that time, it became Schaeffer.

C: Good. What are some of your fondest memories of being a student at C. I.?

B: Well, there were only three in my class when we finished, three girls.

C: Three girls?

B: Two from Christiansburg and one from Roanoke. We all had to speak. [Laughs] We all made our dresses and our hats for our graduation. I think I have pictures around here somewhere.

C: And did the girl from Roanoke, did she board at the school?

B: Yes, she boarded there, but the other girl and I--Kathleen lived right across the street from where S.B. is.

C: Oh.

B: Where S.B.'s shop is now.

C: Uh-huh, on Depot Street?

B: On Depot Street. That was hers--oh yeah, this is my graduation picture right here.

C: Oh.

B: [Laughs] With the principal.

C: And this is Professor E. Long-

B: Long. That's right. That's right.

C: Distinguished-looking individual.

B: This was Kathleen Stewart. She was valedictorian.

C: Okay.

B: And this was Florell Allen. She was from Roanoke. She went back to Roanoke and taught school there until she died.

C: She never got married?

B: No, neither one of them.

C: Oh, that's something else. Kathleen Stewart.

B: She went to Cheyney [University of Pennsylvania] and finished Cheyney.

C: In Pennsylvania?

B: That's right.

C: Where did the Miss Allen go to school?

B: I don't know where Florell went. I don't remember where she went after Christiansburg, but she taught in Roanoke.

C: Did all of you become teachers?

B: All of us were teachers.

C: Isn't that something? Is that by accident or was that by design, do you think?

B: Well, I don't know. [Laughter]. I taught school four years in Christiansburg, and after, came back here and taught school where I went--the building--where I went to school in for four years under the principal, Mrs. McNorton. She was there at the time, and Kathleen Stewart was there at the time, too. This one. When I taught there, whe was there, too.

C: Oh.

B: But she later went to North Carolina and taught down there.

C: Could you tell us about your college experiences?

B: Um-hm.

C: What prompted you to go to Hampton?

B: I had always said when I--we had some teachers at the Christiansburg Industrial Institute from Hampton, who had graduated from Hampton. And I said, that's where I want to go. I want to go to Hampton. I was fifteen, I believe, years old at the time when I finished school. And there was a Mr. and Mrs. Williams used to come up to Mr. Long's home in the summer on their vacation to spend their vacation up here with Mr. Long. They liked to come up here, and Mrs. Long found out that they were coming. They were from Hampton, and she wanted to know and she wanted to ask me, since I said I wanted to go to Hampton, she liked to have me to talk with them, maybe that they would take me down there and I could work for them. They were colored, and I could work for them in their home. And the money that I made would go to Hampton. It wouldn't come to me. It would 17:00go to Hampton for my tuition. And I said, oh, that is fine. So they came up that summer, they took me back to Hampton with them. And I stayed down there at their home. For the first year, I worked in their home as a maid. And the second year, I went in Hampton as a work student. They had, at that time, they had work students, and I went in as a work student. My job was to work in the laundry. We had to take all of the clothes, the names, had to check in the lists of the students. The students were supposed to. They didn't put the list in, but we had 18:00to check everything that was in the little bag. Everybody had a little bag, and we had to take these bags and take out and check them and put them on a little slip. It had little boxes around, and we put these in a box. And then, they would go to the laundry, and after it came back. We had to take and get everybody's laundry and put it in their box. [Laughs]. And if there's any--the boys, we had to patch and darn the socks.

C: Oh my, no way. Well, you earned your education. [Laughter] That's what work study is all about, isn't it?

B: And after that, after my work year, then I went to wait. And I was a waitress in the hall, in the cafeteria, a students' cafeteria. I was waitress staff for a 19:00year, and then the second year, they sent me to the teacher's home. And I had to wait on teachers. I waited on one of the principals who became a principal, Dr. Gregg, who came. I waited on his table when he came. Dr. Frissell, he was the manager of Hampton when I went there, and he died the second year--yes he died, I believe it was the second year--that I was there. And then they had Dr. Gregg to come in. Dr. Frissell was a fine man. He's buried on the campus. Both of them are buried there on the campus, in the campus cemetery.

C: Let me ask you one question. You said you worked a whole year before you went and took classes?

B: That's right. When we were working in our work year, we had classes, some classes, at night.

C: Oh, I see.

B: It was just a few we had at night. And then the second year, I had to work in 20:00the mornings and go to school, come back, and work in the evenings. I waited on tables then. I waited at the teacher's home and Holly Tree Inn. They had an inn there called Holly Tree Inn, where teachers and outsiders could eat there, too. And I waited there, too.

C: Was this typical of the Hampton experience? I mean, this is not something unusual for potential students to spend a work year.

B: No, it was-

C: And worked throughout their career?

B: That's right. Boys did the same thing. It was work for everybody.

C: Was that kind of part of the philosophy?

B: That's right! It was. It was.

C: This is not just Hampton's stance. This is part of their philosophy.

B: That's right.

C: That Black people should get accustomed to working and service.

B: That's right. That's right.

C: Learn on a hands-on basis, then work-

B: That's right. That's right. And Dr. Booker T. Washington established Tuskegee after Hampton. Like Hampton was run, he was running Tuskegee.

C: He was a graduate of Hampton.

B: That's right.

C: And learned from his own collegiate experience.

B: That's right.

C: He tried to simply replicate what he went through. And he said, well, this is a great idea. Why don't we have this in Alabama? And eventually, he began to think about, well, why don't we have other schools similar or maybe lesser schools such as Christiansburg Institute?

B: That's right. That's right.

C: Wow. After you finished your college career, you got a degree in what? You 22:00didn't say.

B: Well, it wasn't a degree at the time. They weren't giving degrees at that time, but mine was in education.

C: Okay.

B: Our manager, a teacher who had taught--we had to teach six months at Whittier School. That was down from Hampton. That was an elementary school. We had to go there and teach.

C: Oh, so that was our apprenticeship?

B: That's right, had to go down there and teach. They sent me down there and I had to teach the fifth grade. I don't know why. [Laughs]. I always wondered why they gave me, but they had from the first and second grades up to the fifth and sixth grades. And they gave me the fifth grade.

C: For a whole year or more?

B: Well, nine months.

C: For nine months?

B: Nine months. And our principal, the lady who was over us, she was sick. But 23:00she would come around to your room. [Laughs] We always laughed at her. She'd come around, and she'd turn her nose up. [Laughs]. Write on a little slip of paper and leave. [Laughs]

C: Oh. Was she a hard person?

B: She was hard, but I don't know why.

C: Hard, but was she fair?

B: She was fair, I'm sure. She was fair. But I don't know. I was always scared, to tell you the truth, of her. [Laughs].

C: But you survived.

B: But she had recommended me as one of the--they had at the time three divisions in the county. They had kind of what they call county supervisors, and they had so many schools in certain divisions. There were three of them. They had one in Tidewater. Miss Bedley was in Tidewater. Then they had a Hampton and 24:00that was Miss...I can't think of her name now. Then they had this one up here, which was Mrs. Brown. Later on, she was Mrs. Brown after she married, but she was up here in this division. And they had what they call a Jeanes Supervisor. We were called Jeanes Supervisors, too. We had to go from school to school in the county. They gave me Chesterfield County. That's where they sent me. I was given a day from school to go with this lady to Chesterfield County and to meet with some of people of the teachers' and student organizations there. I was very 25:00scared, too. [Laughs]. They asked me to talk, and I didn't know what to say. [Laughs]. Then I went with the supervisor, and we stayed, oh, we were there one night--it was two nights I believe. That was about--I don't know how much it was--about a month, I guess, before I graduated when I went up there to go over this county with her. But Chesterfield County was one of the biggest counties in the state, to tell the truth. But I walked all over that county.

C: [Laughter] Did you know how to drive?

B: I didn't have any car. I didn't have any car.

C: So, how did you get around? Did you just walk?

B: I had to walk. I had to ride the train. I had to ride buses. And people would 26:00come and get me. But I visited every school in that county, except one place. One of the place, they didn't have a bus to go down there, and they didn't have a train, couldn't go by train there. All these other places that I could by train, I went by train. But I couldn't go by train there. So I had to walk. I didn't walk there. I went by train one time as far as I could go and then I found out that the people didn't come after me, so I just had to catch the train and go on back to Richmond. But I was in there for two years.

C: Were you well-paid or poorly-paid you think?

B: Well, I guess it might've been what was called well-paid, might have been what they called well-paid.

C: But you weren't married at this point?

B: No, no. No, I wasn't married.

C: So, you were a single woman. Didn't have many expenses.

B: [Laughs]. Yes, I did 'cause I had to stay somewhere, had to pay my board and lodge and travel on the buses and trains and wherever I had to go.

C: Did they reimburse you for these expenses?

B: No.

C: Just out of salary?

B: Sure. Yes, indeed.

C: Just out of salary.

B: That's right. Now, they gave you a little extra for going out. I had to go out and look up some children, state children who were put out in the county in homes. I was told to go there. So when I went out, some of them I never found, some of them I didn't find at all. I couldn't find them. One place I went, I started on over there, and big old dogs, opening the door. I said, unh-uh, can't go there. [Laughs].

C: Not worth it. [Laughter]

B: They had wire fences and everything you had to go.

C: And they expected a lady to do this?

B: That's right! That's right. They expected us to do it.

C: [Laughs].

B: Yes, indeedy. Then you had to give demonstrations, canning and things like 28:00that. You had to give demonstrations in homes. But I found the people in Chesterfield County were just as good to me as they could be. They were lovely to me. Wherever that I went, they were just so nice to me. I have some friends down there now. Most of them that I knew are dead down there, but they were so nice to me, so good to me. Wanted me to come to their homes for dinner. [Laughter]

C: Those were happy years, huh?

B: They were until--I said, I just couldn't make it because I didn't have any transportation at all, and it was too much. So, I just had to give it up. When I gave it up and came home. And then I went to Philadelphia--I believe it was over 29:00there--and worked for one of the men who was a trustee in C. I. I., worked in his home for a few months and then I came back home. I got sick and came back home.

C: When did you come back home to stay?

B: You mean up here?

C: Yeah.

B: I didn't come back here to stay until after my husband died. And my brother and my sister. Our mother was sick, and I came up here to look after and take care of her. And after she died, then I had a brother who was here, and he was alone and I came. I said, well, somebody would have to be there with him. So, I came to live with him.

C: Which brother was this? Is this Charles?

B: Charles.

C: Charles Henry Alexander?

B: That's right. And he fell from a tree back out here right in the backyard, and I was right there and died in my arms. But then, see, I had my other sister, 30:00Harriet, and Harriet had been blind in one eye about twenty years, ten years anyway, before she lost the sight of the other eye. And she was totally blind for about ten years.

C: So you had no other recourse?

B: I had to take care of her.

C: So when did you come back to take care of your brothers and your sister, roughly speaking?

B: 1960-something. I believe in 1960, it was.

C: So you had been living outside of the community up until that time?

B: I had been living in Richmond.

C: Richmond?

B: In Richmond. Down there, I worked in the city schools as a cafeteria manager for twelve years.

[Break in recording]

C: Okay. We're resuming the interview with--the tape that ran out on the other 31:00side. Okay, you can continue, Mrs. Burrell--I'm sorry--Burford.

B: When I married and went to Richmond, I went to work, first, in the library in custodial. I worked there for about, I don't know how long, a year maybe? No, it wasn't a year. Seven months, I think. At first, though, I worked in Miller +ACY- Rhoads cafeteria for six years, till they put us out. [Laughs].

C: Why did they put you all out?

B: They put us out to try to take a--they had all negro waitresses in their cafeteria, and they brought in white. They were only paying us three dollars a 32:00week, and you were supposed to get tips. Some days I worked all day long, didn't get one tip, not one. I never made too many tips. Some waitresses could make a whole lot of tips, but I never made very many. But I was so embarrassed one time there when the manager--the dining [32:33] manager--called all of us together and told them that I was the best waitress they'd had. I was really shocked. [Laughs]. And then, there was one girl who had to come there in the mornings and get the tables in the dining rooms straightened out and salt and pepper shakers and things like that on the tables before it was time for lunch. She had vacation, so they asked me to come in. And that was a little extra money. I needed that, too, because it was hard times at the time. It was 33:00during the time of Depression, and my husband wasn't getting much work to do. He was a carpenter.

C: Was that why you got fired in the first place?

B: No. No.

C: Is that why they let go of the Black waitresses?

B: Because it was-

C: The Depression?

B: No, no! That wasn't the reason. That wasn't the reason, really. It was just that they put these white waitresses in.

C: They just didn't want-

B: They brought them in and would bring them in there to watch us serve and give them lunch. They never gave us any lunch, and they gave them lunch. Then, they put us out. Gave us one salary, and put us all out.

C: This is before-

B: Some of them had been there twenty years. Some of those waitresses had been there twenty years.

C: So this is before the Depression.

B: During the Depression.

C: During the Depression.

B: Yes, really, during the Depression.

C: Well. Um-hm.

B: And we had to go out and do the best we could to get jobs where we could. [Laughs]. I worked in the library then for several months, Virginia State Library, cleaning rooms at night. That was a very big place, too.

C: Were there any white workers, or was it all Blacks who were involved in the cleaning?

B: All Blacks.

C: I guess it must not have been desirable for whites to be doing that, I guess.

B: They had men to do the big--I mean, the men were around. And we had to dust and clean the rooms and [inaudible 34:53]

C: Do you ever feel somehow slighted that your education--that these--you know, 35:00you had all that education and you were forced to do this kind of-

B: No. I never felt like I had so much education.

C: [Laughs].

B: I never felt that I had it all. [Laughs].

C: You never felt that you had arrived, huh?

B: No, I didn't. And then I got into the cafeteria business. I had a school, and I loved that school. I surely did love it. It really debunked into two, but I had to go from--no that wasn't it. That wasn't it. It was just one. But the person who had one of the high schools, the manager there, had to have an operation, and they wanted to send me there. I thought about that. I was so upset. I didn't want to go. I didn't want to go there. That was a high school, and I didn't want to go to a high school. But I had to go because they told me 36:00that I had to go. So I went. Armstrong High School, that's where I was, as the cafeteria manager. And then at the time, you had to have Booker Washington, too, because Booker Washington was small and they didn't have a cafeteria there. They had to send the food from my school down there, from Armstrong down there, to that school. And I had to go down there and supervise that part of it and check that, come back to Armstrong. Well, I stayed at Armstrong. That's where I retired from, Armstrong High School. Then, I did substitute work. I also worked in the office with the manager. She would call me in the office to help her sometimes. I worked there with her till I had to come here, and I was here with 37:00my mother. My mother was sick, and I was here helping take care of her. And they called here wanting me to come back and take one other person, one of the manager's places that had to go in the hospital. I couldn't go 'cause my mother was sick. And so that ended that.

C: Let's somewhat change gears about some of the things. Going back a little bit, you said this area was primarily a Black area. Do you remember some of the prominent families? Do you remember anything about some of the people who lived in this area?

B: Man had a store. Colored man had a big store right across there, Mr. Dan Hoston. And his brother, Roy Hoston, lived out beside of him. He lived right above here, right on top of the hill. This road right here was not like it is now. It was hilled. It went up a hill, went way down. It was a steep hill. Of course, it was right on top of the hill that we crossed over. We used to have to 38:00go over in the spring over in the field and get water. We didn't have any system or well over here, and we had to go to the spring to get water.

C: What about electricity? Did you have electricity?

B: No, we didn't have electricity at all. No. And then our property ran all the way across. [Interstate] 81 was not there. Our property ran all across there all the way out.

C: So part of the [Interstate] 81 is part of your family's property.

B: That's right. That's right. That whole part there belonged to this part here.

C: Did the family sell to the state? I guess it wouldn't be the state-

B: They took it.

C: They took it. Well, they condemned it-

B: That's right.

C: Condemnation, they call it. [Laughs].

B: That's right. But the man on the hill said, I'm going to try to get you all 39:00just as much money out of it as I possibly can. And he did. He tried to. My mother was living at the time, and the family started it. Of course, she died before they put in another part of it, they put in. But he tried to get what he could out of it for us.

C: Was he an attorney or white businessman or?

B: I don't know exactly what he was, to tell the truth. Might have been-

C: Oh.

B: He was a businessman, he was a businessman, all right.

C: Do you remember his name?

B: Schneider.

C: Schneider.

B: That was his name.

C: Well, I can look that up.

B: He had a son, Schneider, down here in town. I think he's sick now and retired. I think he's retired, his son.

C: Any other Black families besides the one--was that a convenience store those people had?

B: No, it was just a grocery store.

C: Grocery store.

B: But they did sell gasoline.

C: Oh, they did?

B: No, they didn't sell gasoline at that time, but it was sold to the people who 40:00bought the house across the street.

C: Okay.

B: Across the street was a house built--it was Kirk family that owned it. Miss Stella Jackson. Her father had a blacksmith shop around on--used to have to come down this road and go across, across here where you didn't have [State Route] 8--I mean, College [Street] was not there.

C: Okay.

B: So it went across here, all across, way all across there, and down the next one [40:33]. Buffalo Drive I believe it is.

C: Oh yeah, yeah, I know where that is.

B: That's down-

C: Way back down there, yeah.

B: Yeah, that's right. Well, you had to go right through there, and down, and then across.

C: Then cut over.

B: And then cut over way down where the hospital is. Ain't that something? Where the doctor's office is down there, cut back over in here. That was the road then.

C: So, there's a lot of changes happening.

B: Oh, yes, indeed.

C: Were the roads paved or anything?

B: No!

C: No. [Laughs].

B: No. That's the reason it was Mud Pike.

C: It was not called Mud Pike for no reason. I mean, out of coincidence.

B: It was really Mud Pike, too. Yes, it was, yes it was.

C: I mean, were certain years it was virtually impassible? Or parts of the year that were-

B: Well, no, not impassible-

C: But difficult.

B: Yes, just difficult to go over. It was very muddy.

C: So, it was aptly described. [Laughs].

B: It was very, very muddy. That's right. And we had oxcarts that came by here. The people employed would come in and they would stop down below the hill to give their oxen and horses more water. The creek was down there, and they'd stop down there and spend the night, a lot of times, down there, and come on up the hill the next morning with produce. Then they'd drive cattle and horses, and 42:00sheep. One time they had turkeys, I believe-

C: Down the road?

B: Down the road. [Laughter]. Down the road, yes.

C: Where were they headed with all this, this flock of-

B: Well, they were going down to the railroad track they had down there and put on a train.

C: Uh-huh. They weren't going to the stockyard?

B: Well, no. A lot of times--a row of horses, you know, Mr. Childress had those, and he would take them from one field to the other--cattle and all,--from one field to the other. That's the way he did it. If you was out there, you'd just have to get out the way of them.

C: [Laughs]. Well, that's interesting. Did any whites live in the community where you grew up? How close were any white families to the-

B: They were across the street, just like-

C: Oh, right across the street.

B: When they bought the store, a man--they were called Quakers at that time. He was a Quaker, and he bought the store. And he and his wife and his family lived across the street there, right in that house.

C: Were they friendly, or-

B: They were very friendly. They were very friendly.

C: Was the relationship with whites and Blacks pretty good?

B: Yes, it was. It was all right.

C: Were there any, recently-

B: Well, downtown you'd pass by and sometimes they'd pass by and children would say, hi nigger.

C: Oh, they would?

B: Oh, yes, and when we went to school, they'd knock us off the street.

C: Off the sidewalk?

B: Off the sidewalk. They didn't want us to be on the sidewalk--indeed.

C: So you remember that very vividly?

B: I do that because-

C: Did that happen to you?

B: No, no.

C: But you saw people-

B: I didn't see it, actually see it. But I know that they did.

C: People told you that you couldn't do this or they would push you off.

B: Uh-huh. One time, the one pushed a one girl off the sidewalk, and she took a rock and threw it. And the rock struck a child. So they had to go to court for that, but--

C: Struck a white child?

B: Yes, it struck--see, it hit the side and bounced off and hit the child. They had to go to the-

C: Any other kind of friction of that nature that you can recall between Blacks and whites?

B: Not exactly, no.

C: No? But that's probably the most--

B: That's right. That's part of the--that was the most-

C: Most-

B: But we tried to stay out of it, stay away from that kind of thing. That kind of thing that we tried to stay away from.

C: Could you freely go to restaurants, and could you go in-

B: Oh, no! You couldn't go to no restaurants. You wouldn't have been to restaurants, you went to the back door if you wanted to buy anything.

C: If you wanted to buy something, you had to go to the back door?

B: Yes.

C: What restaurants did the Black people go to?

B: They didn't go to any restaurants. Well, they went down--that's where Mr. Bentley, his place was kinda-

C: He was a Black man.

B: That's right, and then-

C: Could you sit down and eat in his place?

B: Oh, yes.

C: So, it was a real nice diner.

B: Well, it wasn't so nice as all of that, but it was a place. [Laughter].

C: At least you didn't have to go to the back door.

B: No. No, no. You never go to the back door there. No indeedy.

C: Did you go to the theater? How did Black people entertain themselves? I mean, they didn't simply go to school and go to church and go to work. What did they do for entertainment?

B: Well, they had entertain[ment] joints down on the Blacksburg Road--down a Blacksburg Road or Blacksburg [inaudible 46:03]---down there from--I don't know where that place was now. Black people had little joints, 46:00like, around, and they would have-

C: Do you remember some of the people who operated them, or remember their names?

B: No. S. B. Morgan's place down here, and Burrell had a place, too. Burrell Morgan had a place. But I don't remember any of these others. These others were down a little lower. They had dances and things like that and all that.

C: Was there musical interests on the part of people living here? Did they have--were they into what we call hillbilly music, or? What kind of music did people listen to or play?

B: I don't know, 'cause I never went there. [Laughs].

C: Never went. They did play-

B: [Laughs].

C: Play banjo?

B: Banjos and things like that.

C: That's kind of hillbilly. Was there-

B: Yes, I guess it might've been called hillbilly. I guess that's what it was called.

C: Did people dance hillbilly style?

B: I reckon they did. I reckon they did.

C: Do you remember seeing people-

B: No, I never saw.

C: You never went to those-

B: No. No, indeed.

C: [Laughs]. Why didn't you go?

B: My mother and them never let us go no place like that. [Laughter] We didn't want to go there.

C: You wanted to go there?

B: No, no. I never wanted to go.

C: You never wanted to go.

B: Unh-uh. 'Cause they were rude a lot of times. Used to knock people out and over.

C: Oh, so they were rowdy people.

B: Yes, yes!

C: The people who went to those places were rowdy.

B: Yes.

C: More refined people didn't go to-

B: No, no. No. Unh-uh.

C: Okay. Well, I just wanted to make sure who I was dealing with. So we're dealing with a refined Black woman who did not go to those places.

B: [Laughs]. No, indeedy. No, sir.

C: Under threat of death from parents, that the parents would have killed you if you'd went to a place like that. [Laughter].

B: Yes, our mother always told us, if you get a whipping at school, you was gonna get one when you get back home. So, we never got no whippings at school.

C: Okay. [Laughter]. I wish I could have said the same, but I don't think I can. Believe me, I got my share.

B: Oh, she could whip you. She'd whip you every time you--and I got my share, too.

C: What about church life? Was that real important around here?

B: Yes. That was very important. We had prayer meetings on Sunday evenings. We had cottage prayer meetings from house to house.

C: Oh, went house to house?

B: From house to house. We'd start down here and go on out the road, way on out the road, out past my grandfather's and uncle's house out there, way on out the road there.

C: Who was this sponsored by? Was it the Schaeffer or some other church or just 49:00people in the community said, well, let's just-

B: People in the community, really, because my grandfather was a deacon of the church and he used to, hosted that. He was a deacon, and he would have it. And then after that, I mean, we as a group left from Schaeffer. We used to go out and have prayer service in the homes. That was a long time after all my people died except Nadine [49:34]. My sister was living, and we used to go down with the group.

C: So this community, would you describe it as very--I mean, the immediate community where we live in, where we're located today, Mud Pike Road, was that a very religious community?

B: Yes.

C: Would you describe-

B: Yes, I would describe it as-

C: People here as very-

B: Yes, because one man out here--he was a brother to this one that had a store--he was a preacher.

C: Oh, what did he preach?

B: He was a Baptist preacher, and he had an established church in Blacksburg. His picture's up in that church. First Baptist Church in Blacksburg.

C: Oh, Clay Street?

B: Roy Hoston.

C: Hoston, okay.

B: His picture's in the church.

C: Okay. I'm a member of St. Paul A.M.E., so I don't end up quite often at First Baptist. But next time I'm over there, I'll look for it.

B: Yes, it's up in there if they haven't taken it down. It was up in there last time I was over there. Mr. Roy Hoston. Because my brother married one of his daughters. One of my brothers, after his first wife died, he married one of the daughters, Lucy. They lived right over here. My brother built those houses, that house and two houses over here on this side. Those two little cottages over there.

C: So what kind of work did your brothers do?

B: My brother, the youngest one was a carpenter. The other one didn't have any 51:00real--he did just jobs, like cutting grass and things in the town for people. And then they did clean up a church down there one time.

C: So they built some homes around this area.

B: Oh, my brother could build anything he wanted to build. And anything anybody else wanted, he'd build it. [Laughs]. He could build it. He was a good--he never went to school for carpentry, but picked it up. The Lord gave it to him and he did it.

C: Did he go to C. I.?

B: Yes, but he didn't finish. He was the only one that didn't finish.

C: 'Cause didn't they have a bricklaying and carpentry-

B: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yeah. All of that there.

C: Yeah, and barbering and everything you could think of.

B: That's right, that's right. Of course, I wasn't there when they had barbering. When I was there, we only had the bricklaying and carpentry work. They had the carpentry shop when I was there.

C: Okay. Well, that's good to know. I knew that they didn't have barbering the whole time. I wasn't sure about when, so you've given me a little bit more perspective.

B: Then they had a hospital there.

C: Right, they had a hospital. I knew about that.

B: You did?

C: Yes.

B: My cousin-

C: What was the name of the hospital? I can't remember. Somebody said it on the tape, but it's been a week or so and I can't remember. What was the name of the--It wasn't really a hospital, wasn't it kind of an infirmary or-

B: It was a hospital because they operated on people there.

C: Oh, they did?

B: Operated on one of my cousins. She was the first person, I think, was operated on in there. Cousin Karen.

C: They didn't have-

B: Operated on in that hospital.

C: Didn't have any Black physicians, did they?

B: No, no, no.

C: The white physicians simply didn't operate on people at the white hospital. They simply had kind of a satellite hospital.

B: They did operate on at white hospitals a lot of time and sent them back home.

C: But they wouldn't keep them?

B: No, no. They didn't keep any.

C: That is, you got the operation and get out.

B: That's right. That's right. That's right.

C: So that was one of the reasons for the Black hospital. You had--

B: Yes. After you did that [53:04]--

C: You could convalesce if you needed some time to recuperate.

B: Sure. Yes.

C: You could convalesce at these. Not like the white hospital that's, hurry up and get out. [Laughs]

B: Um-hm. That's right.

C: Even if you were on your sickbed.

B: Yes. But that cousin, she was very sick. When my grandmother died, the doctor who everybody--the funeral procession passed right by, because my grandfather lived up the road, passed right by the house. It was a man who, a doctor here, and he advocated having windows up all winter and summer. With the cold, cold, cold. We said, Lord, that lady's gonna freeze to death in that house. When we passed by, people said, she's gonna be the next one. But that lady got up from 54:00there. This doctor worked on her. He would come out here, walk out--he walked, and I don't care how cold it was. You'd see him coming up the street with his coat hanging loose. He's just walking, showing his white shirt and all. He came out there and looked after her, and she got out of the bed.

C: What was the doctor's name?

B: Can't think of his name now. [inaudible 54:23]

C: But doctors all the time did that.

B: Janney, I believe his name was. I'm not sure.

C: Okay. Well, were the white physicians disrespectful to the Black patients or respectful or?

B: We had one old doctor here, Dr. Edmondson. He was a white. I think he delivered all Mama's children. He was an old doctor, but he was very nice.

C: Did he deliver you?

B: I guess he did, guess he did. He was the only doctor here.

C: There were no Black midwives?

B: Yes, we had a Black midwife right down the street here. She was Mrs. Gray.

C: Mrs. Gray?

B: Uh-huh. Her name was Miss Gray, she was a midwife.

C: Were there many others or just a few?

B: I think my grandmother was a midwife. I think she was. She worked for white people. She had nursed Judge--was it? He was the judge--Judge Gray. Not Gray. What was the man's name? Judge--Crush.

C: Crush. I'm not familiar with that.

B: His name was Charles Crush.

C: Charles Crush?

B: Um-hm. Yeah. She nursed him, my grandmother.

C: And your grandmother was named-

B: Harriet Eliza Carr.

C: Oh, on the Carr side of your family.

B: Yes, that picture right inside that door. That big picture. On the outside of the door.

C: On the outside, okay. I'll look when I-

B: Uh-huh. [Laughs]. She was a lovely lady.

C: Did she just deliver white children or did she deliver white and Black children?

B: I don't know that. I know that she was working for white, but I don't know nothing about--she might've. I don't know whether she ever delivered colored or not.

C: Okay, well, let's see. Last question I can think of is, what kind of social organizations existed in this area? For instance, in Blacksburg they had such things as the Odd Fellows and the Masons and the Independent Order of St. Luke, and the Household of Ruth. Did Black people in Christiansburg belong to such organizations?

B: I don't know, because I don't remember any of them, nor of anybody belonging to any of those organizations here.

C: At least in terms of this community.

B: No, I don't. I don't. They may have, but I don't remember.

C: There was an Odd Fellows Lodge in Christiansburg, and I believe it was the Masons.

B: Uh-huh.

C: I can't remember right offhand if there was a Household of Ruth, but there were some of the fraternal orders I've mentioned.

B: Yes.

C: But nobody in this community seemed to be associated with them.

B: I don't think so.

C: Okay, well, I think we've covered most of the ground. Is there any loose end that you want to tie up?

B: I don't think so.

C: Well, thank you for your participation. Now, I'm gonna take a look at all the photographs you've got.

[End of interview]