Oral History with James C. Wade, March 12, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Partial Transcript: Michael A. Cooke: Today is March 12, 1991. I’m conducting an interview with James C. Wade of Blacksburg. Mr. Wade, could you give a brief biographical sketch of your life? Your birthdate, birthplace, education and occupation?
James Wade: Well, I was born June 28, 1941, Blacksburg, and I went to Christiansburg Institute. Graduated. I worked for-
Michael Cooke: What year did you graduate by the way?
James Wade: 1959.
Michael Cooke: [19]59.
James Wade: And I worked for Blacksburg Mayflower for a few years. I worked for VPI Cleaners and other cleaners [00:43] My dad did in Utla. And I got drafted in the army. Got out in [19]65, and I started working at the Radford Hospital [00:57] in [19]66, January the fifth. So, I’ve been there for twenty-five years. I got married in [19]67, and I’ve been living here for, in this house, for eighteen years.

Keywords: birthdate; birthplace; Blacksburg Mayflower; Blacksburg, Virginia; Christiansburg Institute; education; James C. Wade; Radford Hospital

Subjects: Blacksburg (Va.); Christiansburg Industrial Institute

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Can you talk about your parents? In terms of what was their interest in trying to get an education for their children? And perhaps you can talk about education opportunities in this area and talk about the schooling you received, or where you went to school. And was it integrated or segregated or whatever?
James Wade: Well, I lived on Clay Street. And the high school-
Michael Cooke: Near the church?
James Wade: Yes. Right up there next to-
Michael Cooke: Oh right next door to First Baptist-
James Wade: Two houses from the church.
Michael Cooke: Oh, I know where that is.
James Wade: And the Blacksburg High School, then, was right across the street.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
James Wade: And we had to ride the bus to Christiansburg for the high school.
Michael Cooke: Because they didn’t allow Blacks?
James Wade: No Blacks was allowed. They weren’t integrated. And the town wasn’t integrated, so we had to go to the store and buy stuff and eat together. And we had integrated the town. I can’t remember what it was, but first we went to the store, a place called Cottage Inn. It was about three Blacks and three whites that went down there.
Michael Cooke: Were you one of them?
James Wade: Yes. And we sat down and they served us. And nobody said anything.
Michael Cooke: When did this take place?
James Wade: I’m not sure the year. I don’t know what year it was. Early sixties.
Michael Cooke: Early sixties.
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: What led you to do that?
James Wade: Well, there’s just some white people came over to talk to us and asked us, you know, about races. [inaudible 2:46-2:49]. We were young, you know, so they didn’t bother us.
Michael Cooke: You just out of high school?
James Wade: Yeah. And so then we go to—it used to be the bus station, where Hokie House is now.
Michael Cooke: Oh yes. Um-hm.
James Wade: And we went in there and sat down. And they served us. There was no problem. So from that day on, Blacksburg was integrated. We didn’t have any problems.
Michael Cooke: But prior to you taking that stance, people just didn’t go in because they were fearful of some repercussions that-
James Wade: Yes because we always had to go to Cecil’s [Place] going through the backdoor to order food and stuff. And they would serve the food and stuff at the backdoor, and we didn’t push things because we didn’t know that much about integration.
Michael Cooke: But, when you did find out about this going on, was it something that you realized was going on throughout the country, throughout the south and you said, well if they could do it we could do it, or something of that nature?

Keywords: Blacksburg High School; Cecil's Place; Christiansburg Industrial Institute; Christiansburg Institute; Clay Street; Cottage Inn; education opportunities; First Baptist Church; Hokie House; integration; schooling

Subjects: Christiansburg Industrial Institute; Integration

Partial Transcript: James Wade: Well, we got along with the whites around here, you know. We played ball with them everyday. The Blacks would play against the whites. We used to call it down on the diamond. Down there by the Armory there used to be a ball field.
Michael Cooke: Oh, there was?
James Wade: Everyday, the Blacks would play the whites in soft ball, and the students would line up against the fence to watch us play ball every evening. And whenever we lose a ball or the ball get raggedy, students would pick up money and go to Wes Nato [4:16] and buy a new ball just so we can continue playing ball. It was nice. Nobody arguing or nothing. No fighting or nothing. And we did that about every week. And on Sunday, we used to play up on the high school football field. Blacks would play the whites. Play football all day long, no arguments, no fights, no nothing.
Michael Cooke: Were the teams integrated or was it?
James Wade: No. No. Blacks versus-
Michael Cooke: Blacks versus white.
James Wade: Yeah. And we didn’t argue or nothing. We just played just like me and you would go out there and play today. There was nothing to it. And the same way with basketball. They would give us a key to the Armory with a basket to use on Friday nights. And we would go every Friday night, and we’d play basketball.
Michael Cooke: That’s the only time you could use it?
James Wade: Yeah.

Keywords: ball games; baseball; football; race relations; soft ball

Subjects: Baseball; Football; Race Relations

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Let me ask you another, backup a little bit. You talked about some whites approached you about going and integrating the eating establishments. Do you remember the people?
James Wade: No one.
Michael Cooke: Were they college students?
James Wade: No. They were some business people around town.
Michael Cooke: Business people?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: So business people asked Blacks in the community to do this?
James Wade: Yeah. Well like I can remember. Like I said, everybody got along with everybody around here, you know, so...
Michael Cooke: How old were these people if you can remember? Thirties, forties, fifties?
James Wade: I gotta say maybe thirties or forties somewhere I guess.
Michael Cooke: Do you remember some of the places they owned?
James Wade: I don’t think they owned any places they were just trying to help. [Inaudible 5:46]
Michael Cooke: But they were business people?
James Wade: Yeah. Um-hm.
Michael Cooke: That’s interesting. Were they northerners or southerners?
James Wade: No, they were from Blacksburg, I think.
Michael Cooke: They were from Blacksburg. So, that’s interesting. So the white community approached the Black community and said now, why don’t y’all integrate this area? There’s not going to be any fuss about it.
James Wade: See they were integrating all around, and so most of them wanted us to do our parts. So, I guess they figured it wouldn’t be any problem [6:16].
Michael Cooke: So then they approached your parents and asked your parents that perhaps you should participate in this?
James Wade: I’m not sure how it all come up anyway.
Michael Cooke: But they did-
James Wade: We got together and went down. And they went down with us, you know, and sit down, you know. And all we [Inaudible 6:34]
Michael Cooke: And that was the end of the Jim Crow period forever in this town. That’s interesting.

Keywords: business leaders; business people; integration; Jim Crow; restaurant

Subjects: Blacksburg (Va.); Business Leaders; Integration

Partial Transcript: James Wade: And there used to be a skating rink. And so the Blacks used to-
Michael Cooke: Where was that located?
James Wade: It was up on what they called, Skating Rink Hill.
Michael Cooke: Skating Rink Hill.
James Wade: Right there where Hokie Harlen’s at [6:52].
Michael Cooke: Oh yeah.
James Wade: That hill was called Skating Rink Hill. It was over to...going up the hill, it would be over to the right. The hill is torn down now. They changed it to a restaurant, a seafood place. They gone, but used to be a skating rink there.
Michael Cooke: Oh, I didn’t even realize there was another one. There was one in Christiansburg out there, but I didn’t realize there was one in Blacksburg.
James Wade: So, we could use it on Thursday nights. A man named Mr. Hill, Black guy, he would get it for us on Thursday nights. That’s where Blacks would go on Thursday nights.
Michael Cooke: What was Mr. Hill’s first name?
James Wade: I can’t remember.
Michael Cooke: Do you know what he did?
James Wade: He used to own a restaurant here called The Chicken Shack.
Michael Cooke: Oh.
James Wade: It used to be up in the Alley. We would call up in the Alley-
Michael Cooke: Alley. Near Wood Wine? Is that Wood Wine near the...with the eve’s?
James Wade: I knew Price. Allan Price.
Michael Cooke: Allan Price? And I’m trying to think of the Zay Wade? Is that the—
James Wade: Down on Zay Wade, yeah.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
James Wade: Right behind her house.
Michael Cooke: Okay now I got it. I know where it is. Was it a big place?
James Wade: It was a little, small house that was made into a little restaurant called The Chicken Shack.
Michael Cooke: The Chicken Shack. What do they serve?
James Wade: [Inaudible 10:08] Pop and candy and stuff. They had a jukebox in there. We always just walked in there and just hung around like Blacks do and just hung around in there.
Michael Cooke: Uh-huh. So that’s what people socialize like? Mainly teenagers or?
James Wade: Yeah, well I was about the age of a teenager.
Michael Cooke: Yeah. When did they first establish that business? Or did it exist beyond for you to remember?
James Wade: It wasn’t that long. It wasn’t that big of a deal because most of the older guys, they went to Radford. Went to a club. They had one in Christiansburg called the Green Arrow.
Michael Cooke: And they had one called Cook—
James Wade: Cook and they had one in Christiansburg call Club 21
Michael Cooke: Club 21. Right.
James Wade: Jacques Johnson [8:53]
Michael Cooke: Right. I never heard of The Green Arrow though.
James Wade: It was over in Cambria.
Michael Cooke: Okay who operated that?
James Wade: James Lewis.
Michael Cooke: James Lewis. Where exactly on Cambria?
James Wade: Out on the main road.
Michael Cooke: Right on Depot Street?
James Wade: No, this was out over...I guess it might have still been Depot Street-
Michael Cooke: Near the railroad tracks?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Oh, yeah. It winds all the way around.
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Okay, so I got an idea where…Was it on the side towards the railroad tracks?
James Wade: No, it was-
Michael Cooke: It was on the other side away from the station?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Okay. How big was it?
James Wade: It was small.
Michael Cooke: Real small?
James Wade: Real small.
Michael Cooke: Basically Blacks patronizing-
James Wade: Yeah, but it was a nice place to go. [Inaudible 9:41] It was nice-
Michael Cooke: For young people?
James Wade: It used to pack—old people too.
Michael Cooke: So for all ages?
James Wade: Everybody. Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Did they have live music or just a jukebox?
James Wade: No, jukebox.
Michael Cooke: Did people dance up a storm?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: What kind of music did they play?
James Wade: Old music.
Michael Cooke: Just old music. No hillbilly music?
James Wade: No. Unh-uh.

Keywords: Allan Price; Cambria; Club 21; Depot Street; Green Arrow; jukebox; Mr. Hill; skating rink; Skating Rink Hill; socialization; the Chicken Shack; Wood Wine; Zay Wade

Subjects: Black Businesses; Social Life

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay, interesting. Let’s get backtracked a little bit about the going to Christiansburg Institute. How was that like? Let’s just play a scenario here. Getting up in the morning, where did you have to go to catch the bus, and how long did it take?
James Wade: Where the bus stop was in front of my house, and the kids in my neighborhood would meet at my house.
Michael Cooke: How many people would generally get on at that stop?
James Wade: Let’s see, three of us...five…about nine to ten.
Michael Cooke: Okay what families would be included?
James Wade: There was my older sister and brother and my cousins-
Michael Cooke: And their cousins are named Wade or are they-
James Wade: They’re Shermans.
Michael Cooke: They’re Shermans?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Are these Shermans related to people in Wake Forest, [Virginia]?
James Wade: Yes, they came from Wake Forest, [Virginia].
Michael Cooke: Uh-huh.
James Wade: See, my aunt was a Sherman.
Michael Cooke: I see.
James Wade: Okay, then the Reynolds, Gracie Reynolds, had kids, and they’d get on behind me at Eddie Mills’.
Michael Cooke: Is this a Mill connected to Nellies Cave?
James Wade: Yeah, they came from there.
Michael Cooke: Okay.
James Wade: And we catched the bus about six something in the morning.
Michael Cooke: That early in the morning? So what time did you get up? I mean, let’s start from the beginning here.
James Wade: I don’t know. You talking a long time ago.
Michael Cooke: Yeah. You probably got up around five or something?
James Wade: I don’t know. About five thirty, something like that, you know-
Michael Cooke: Get up in the morning?
James Wade: Maybe six or something like that-
Michael Cooke: And then you could walk right-
James Wade: Walk right out my door.
Michael Cooke: [Laughs] Then walk right across the street.
James Wade: Walk right over.
Michael Cooke: That’s interesting.
James Wade: And then we would drive to Vicker, [Virginia].
Michael Cooke: Uh-huh right.
James Wade: And pick up the kids in Vicker. I think then we had to go to Cambria and pick up the kids on Cambria and then we’d go to Christiansburg Institute.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm. How long did this take from place to place you came across?
James Wade: I don’t know. It was a slow bus.
Michael Cooke: It was a slow, long ride huh?
James Wade: Slow, long, cold bus.
Michael Cooke: What about the bus? Was it first rate?
James Wade: No, we got the worst bus in the county, and every time they would get a new bus, they would give it to the whites. And we would get their worst bus. So, we were glad to see them get a new bus because we knew we were moving up one step. And each time hoping this one would have heat on it.
Michael Cooke: Oh, hoping eventually to get heat?
James Wade: [inaudible 12:35]
Michael Cooke: Did the white buses have heat on them?
James Wade: Yeah, I imagine they did, but I don’t know. I’ve never been on one.
Michael Cooke: You never….so you don’t know. [Laughs].
James Wade: So, when we go to school, we would play sports, and my daddy would come pick us up one day out of the week. And the rest of the time we’d have to hitchhike unless one of the other parents would come pick us up.
Michael Cooke: You mean the bus only went one way?
James Wade: Well, that’s just for the students it went both ways, but for the athletes-
Michael Cooke: Oh, you were an athlete.
James Wade: If you played football or basketball-
Michael Cooke: Oh, I see.
James Wade: We would stay over after school, so we would get home the best way we could.
Michael Cooke: Was that dangerous?
James Wade: Well, yeah.
Michael Cooke: Was it dangerous hitchhiking?
James Wade: Well, we used to walk. We walked from Blacksburg-
Michael Cooke: You’d rather walk huh?
James Wade: No. We’d walk from Christiansburg to Blacksburg many nights because we couldn’t catch a ride because there were so many others.
Michael Cooke: I see.

Keywords: Christiansburg Industrial Institute; Christiansburg Institute; Eddie Mills; Gracie Reynolds; hitchhiking; Nellies Cave; Reynolds; Shermans; Vicker, Virginia; Wade; Wake Forest, Virginia; walking

Subjects: Christiansburg Industrial Institute

Partial Transcript: James Wade: And sometimes the white kids would come by and they would throw balloons on us in the snow [inaudible 13:43]
Michael Cooke: So that type of thing went on. Well, I interviewed one person recently. He said, he hitchhiked from Christiansburg to [inaudible 13:54] and one time a drunken white driver pulled out a gun and started shooting at him. Fortunately, he was so drunk he couldn’t get the bullets into the chamber, and so the two Black passengers jumped out including the person I interviewed and they shot at them. So, I just wanted to impart that so things could be worse.
James Wade: Yeah. Yeah. You know they would come by and called you names and everything, you know. Blow the horn at you and cut off the roads and try to hit you or something, but they never just-
Michael Cooke: People tried to hit you while you were walking?
James Wade: Yeah. Yeah. I guess they didn’t have anything to do. They had a car and were out there driving around.
Michael Cooke: Did eventually people get a car?
James Wade: Yeah, we had a guy from Wake Forest, a couple guys from Wake Forest. They had [inaudible 14:49] but everybody down there knew each other. Once they got to Blacksburg, they could get to Wake Forest a lot easier. A lot easier for them to get from Wake Forest to Blacksburg than it was to get from Christiansburg to Blacksburg-
Michael Cooke: Blacksburg.
James Wade: So, a lot of people around there, they got along a lot better then. We was different typed people in different areas coming from Christiansburg, but once we were in Blacksburg there was no problem.
Michael Cooke: Are you saying the caliber….that people were less racist as a rule in Blacksburg? Or at least they weren’t prone to issue racial epithets or try to hit you with a car or moving vehicle?
James Wade: Right. We had a place called Merrimac. Had a train called the Huckleberry. Ever heard of that?
Michael Cooke: Yes. Yes.
James Wade: Okay Blacks didn’t go through the Huckleberry in the train because people in Merrimac would throw rocks at them. So, if you’d get on the train in Christiansburg, when you get to Merrimac you’d have to duck down and not let them see you going through Merrimac.
Michael Cooke: That’s sad to hear that.
James Wade: That’s the way it was. I got over it.

Keywords: Blacksburg, Virginia; car; Christiansburg, Virginia; Huckleberry; Merrimac, Virginia; race relations; transportation; Wake Forest, Virginia; walking

Subjects: Montgomery County (Va.)

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: You got over it. You survived. Well, any other memorable things that happened while you were going to school back and forth? What did you think about the teachers? What did you think about the education that you got in Christiansburg Institute?
James Wade: They were good teachers for those kinds of students.
Michael Cooke: That there were serious professors or teachers?
James Wade: Principals and officers too. He sent me home the second day for stealing [Laughter] because I was cutting up on the bus. I couldn’t go back to school until [inaudible 16:41].
Michael Cooke: Were they a very disciplined...they had a discipline environment where, I mean, there was not a lot of cutting up going on in classrooms?
James Wade: You can tell when someone did something wrong because you can see them out there white washing the trees out there, so you knew, cutting grass out there, you knew, they messed up somewhere.
Michael Cooke: Uh oh. So, they were very oriented to discipline and they maintained a disciplined environment so that maximum amount of learning can take place, right? I wish I could do the same thing.
James Wade: They didn’t play around.
Michael Cooke: So, that’s good. What kind of courses did you take? And do you remember some of the teachers you had?
James Wade: Well, barbery with Mr. Grays.
Michael Cooke: Was that very popular?
James Wade: Yeah, a couple of the Black guys took barbery. [inaudible 17:34] Mr. Bannister, he died, I think, about five years ago.
Michael Cooke: Was he related to Frank Bannister?
James Wade: That’s who I’m talking about, Frank Bannister.
Michael Cooke: No, Frank Bannister is still alive.
James Wade: That’s the father.
Michael Cooke: Oh, you’re talking about-
James Wade: His son.
Michael Cooke: His son. I’m sorry. Was it Frank Bannister, Jr.?
James Wade: I think it was junior.
Michael Cooke: That’s right.
James Wade: Right, right, right. I think [Inaudible 17:58] Mr. Holmes, he’s still living.
Michael Cooke: Which one?
James Wade: [inaudible 18:09]
Michael Cooke: I never can get it straight. One of them is deceased, and I can’t remember which one it is.
James Wade: One of them was fighting measles. Okay, no. Both of them are dead now. He died. He died a couple years ago, I think.
Michael Cooke: Yes.
James Wade: Yes. Right. And Joe Smith.
Michael Cooke: Joe Smith.
James Wade: Lived down the street.
Michael Cooke: I don’t know him.
James Wade: [Inaudible 18:37] And Mr. Dobson.
Michael Cooke: What is Mr. Dobson’s first name? I can never get it right.
James Wade: Oh...
Michael Cooke: People always call him Mr. Dobson but I guess all the students would never call him by his first name anyway, so nobody knows.
James Wade: Yeah. [Inaudible 19:05] He’s a pretty good person to talk to because he can tell you a lot about-
Michael Cooke: Um-hm. I think I heard that name before that. There was a lady who taught at C.I. that also taught at Radford [19:13] that’s probably the same lady.
James Wade: That’s the one.
Michael Cooke: That’s probably the same lady. Okay, well let’s-
James Wade: [Inaudible 19:20]

Keywords: barbering; bus; Christiansburg Institute; discipline; Frank Bannister; Joe Smith; Mr. Bannister; Mr. Dobson; Mr. Grays; students; teachers

Subjects: Christiansburg Industrial Institute

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: When you came back….Now, you served in the Army from when to when? You said, wait a minute, [19]50? What [19]50? Up-
James Wade: [19]65.
Michael Cooke: [19]65! Wait a minute. When did you finish that?
James Wade: I finished school in [19]59.
Michael Cooke: [19]59. Then you went in the Army?
James Wade: [19]63.
Michael Cooke: [19]63. For two years?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Okay, two years. You came out at a great time that was just when the Vietnam War was just starting up.
James Wade: I was in California when they were shipping everybody out. I was in Korea for about thirteen months, and when I came back I was stationed in California. And then they was shipping a lot of people out. I was in charge of supply and see them on their way. So I took [inaudible 20:08] language school. To solve foreign language, and I was a spy over there. And they was shipping a lot of people to Vietnam. They was taking foreign language. [inaudible 20:20].
Michael Cooke: Yeah that was horrible.
James Wade: There was a lot of people that was re-up. You know, just to get the money. Then they was going to Vietnam
Michael Cooke: Um-hm. Right out of the Army, where did you come back? Immediately to town?
James Wade: I came home, yeah.
Michael Cooke: And you worked where?
James Wade: At the Radford Arsenal.
Michael Cooke: Radford Arsenal. How did you start off there as a?
James Wade: Induction worker.
Michael Cooke: Induction worker. Making ammunitions?
James Wade: Well, I was making powder.
Michael Cooke: Making powder. So you made powder for the ammunitions. Okay.
James Wade: I’m still in the same department, but I’m making acid now.

Keywords: ammunition; Army; California; foreign lanugage; Induction worker; Korea; powder; Radford Army Ammunition Plant; Radford Arsenal; Vietnam War

Subjects: Army; Radford Army Ammunition Plant (U.S.)

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay. Off the tape a few days ago we were talking about some things, and you mentioned you lived on Clay Street much of your life right?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Before coming over here. You mentioned that a number of the Black students who were admitted to [Virginia] Tech initially stayed in that area.
James Wade: Right next door to me and my cousin-
Michael Cooke: And some of the Black scholarships-
James Wade: In a boarding house. She had a boarding house.
Michael Cooke: Oh a boarding house. What’s her name?
James Wade: Janey Hole.
Michael Cooke: Janey Hole.
James Wade: Yeah, she had a boarding house there, and they had to stay there. And the first football player, the first guy that played football for [Virginia] Tech, he stayed there. He couldn’t change clothes on campus. He had to wear his uniform to practice from the house, go to practice, come right back home, walk. And when he had a football game, he would wear his uniform to the football game, and when the game was over, he would wear it back to the house. They didn’t-
Michael Cooke: Didn’t even offer him a ride?
James Wade: He walked both places.
Michael Cooke: Did he have a training table? I mean, how was he getting fed because normally they were football scholarship athletes, you got a training table you’re supposed to eat X about of calories every-
James Wade: He ate at the house next door.
Michael Cooke: That was his training table? So he wasn’t even allowed the services of a training table? His training table was the boarding house.
James Wade: The boarding house. They all ate over there.
Michael Cooke: Did he get paid extra? I mean, did he pay extra money for that?
James Wade: I don’t know.
Michael Cooke: You don’t know. That’s curious.
James Wade: My mother might be able to tell you that.

Keywords: Black students; boarding house; Clay Street; Janie Hoge; uniform; Virginia Tech

Subjects: Blacksburg (Va.); football

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay. What about athletics? I mean, if you had interest in the Virginia Tech athletics and you wanted to go to a game and attend a basketball game or football game, could Black people do this before desegregation occurred and under what terms?
James Wade: Well, we could go to football games, and they had some seats over there that said, colored only. One of the sections up on the hill we sit up in this one little section that had a sign that said, colored only. And that where we had to sit at.
Michael Cooke: How big was this section?
James Wade: It was just a set of bleachers. A regular set of bleachers. Just one regular set. You know you get a section, but it was one regular set.
Michael Cooke: How many Blacks would generally go? I mean, go to games.
James Wade: It wasn’t that many, about five or six, ten maybe.
Michael Cooke: Maybe. Not a lot of people. What if you wanted during the course of the game to get a hot dog or a coke?
James Wade: We didn’t have no money to do all that, so we didn’t worry about it.
Michael Cooke: But even if you had the money?
James Wade: I guess you could go up there and buy it but, you know, like I said we didn’t even…I don’t remember buying a hot dog and coke at a ball game.
Michael Cooke: No people came up trying to halt goods like popcorn, peanuts, beer, whatever?
James Wade: No.
Michael Cooke: That was interesting though, huh? What about basketball? Did you go to basketball games?
James Wade: No, we didn’t go to basketball games.
Michael Cooke: There was no section at all for you?
James Wade: Well, I don’t know we didn’t go.
Michael Cooke: You just didn’t go?
James Wade: No, we were just into football not basketball.
Michael Cooke: Just outside of sports.
James Wade: But we sneaked into most events that we didn’t care about. [Laughter]. We couldn’t sneak into the basketball games. We would sneak into the football games.
Michael Cooke: So, did you sneak into the sections to look at the football games?
James Wade: Yeah, we had a little hole in the fence against there. They knew we didn’t pay. They didn’t worry about us.
Michael Cooke: They didn’t care.
James Wade: We would just go and sit in our section. They knew we didn’t come to their gate so they didn’t bother to come and ask us for our tickets. So, like I said, there wasn’t that many, you know, so they didn’t bother us.

Keywords: football game; Virginia Tech athletics

Subjects: football

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Okay. You said that pretty much, you said, in Blacksburg, there weren’t that many noticeable racial problems between whites and Blacks. I mean that people didn’t go around saying, do you know that you’re Black? Oh, I guess back then do you know that you’re a negro?
James Wade: No.
Michael Cooke: You didn’t have confrontations like that?
James Wade: No. Like I said, we grew up together, we played together, you know. We knew who was Black we knew who was white. We knew we wanted to go to school, so it didn’t bother us.
Michael Cooke: It only bothered people outside the community, like if you went to Merrimac?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Then you’d have problems?
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: If you wanted to go on a train or if you wanted to go to a store or if you wanted to look for a job over maybe in Merrimac, would you think about that?
James Wade: No no no.
Michael Cooke: [Laughs]. Why do you think the people in Merrimac were so much different then so many other areas in this area and so many other communities?
James Wade: See, they never was around Blacks, to pay Blacks, to raise up with Blacks or nothing. It’s was all a different section. And I guess they was taught that you don’t play with Blacks, you don’t associate with them. But in town, you around them all the time. You don’t pay any attention to them, you know.
Michael Cooke: What kind of class of people were living there? I mean was this Merrimac a community of poor whites or middle class whites or upper-
James Wade: I think it was just poor whites.
Michael Cooke: And what kind of jobs, basically, did these people do?
James Wade: They worked for the town, you know.
Michael Cooke: The town.
James Wade: [inaudible 26:26]
Michael Cooke: Unskilled working or semiskilled workings of that nature.
James Wade: They might have had one or two [inaudible 26:36]
Michael Cooke: Were they kind of resentful of Blacks?
James Wade: No. I don’t know.
Michael Cooke: Or maybe they had fearful of Blacks that they might kind of hurt their status?
James Wade: No, we just didn’t go over there and bother them.
Michael Cooke: It was just the place that-
James Wade: We didn’t let them come over here and bother us.

Keywords: Merrimac, Virginia; race relations

Subjects: Montgomery County (Va.); Race Relations

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: What type of jobs did Blacks have in this town when you were growing up? I mean, what kind of jobs-
James Wade: Well, really when I was growing up there weren’t that many Blacks here.
Michael Cooke: Weren’t that many.
James Wade: Unh-huh. They worked for the pack department which was stamped down to the ground now. Used to be called the pack department. My father worked for the cleaners.
Michael Cooke: And that’s the Campus Cleaners?
James Wade: No, used to be the Monogram Cleaners.
Michael Cooke: Uh-huh.
James Wade: The laundromat that’s over there now?
Michael Cooke: Yes.
James Wade: Used to be the Monogram Cleaners next to it. Which they converted to a [inaudible 27:27] department to change it to [inaudible 27:32].
Michael Cooke: They keep changing it. Was something…a learning resource center. But they changed it to something else. I don’t know what it is now.
James Wade: Used to be the Monogram Cleaners. My daddy work there. Most of them worked for the [Radford] Arsenal.
Michael Cooke: If you were working at the Arsenal, did you have a personal car? Did you carpool? Or was there a bus? How did you get to the arsenal?
James Wade: I just used a personal car.
Michael Cooke: You just had to have a personal car.
James Wade: You could catch a ride with somebody if you don’t have a car. There was always somebody-
Michael Cooke: But there was no bus line or anything?
James Wade: No. Unh-uh.
Michael Cooke: For instance, Trailway or—the other— Greyhound didn’t run over there to the Arsenal?
James Wade: Never.
Michael Cooke: So you just got over there the best way you could.
James Wade: I also did some work for the family [28:17].
Michael Cooke: That’s in Radford?
James Wade: Radford yeah.
Michael Cooke: How did you get there? The same way?
James Wade: The same way.
Michael Cooke: Same way.
James Wade: Drove my car.
Michael Cooke: Drove your car or got a ride from somebody who had a car. So there was no public transportation?
James Wade: No.
Michael Cooke: You couldn’t walk that far.
James Wade: Well, if you could walk to Christiansburg, you could walk north if you had to.
Michael Cooke: Yeah, it’s not that far. If you could walk from—yeah I guess you could do that. I don’t think I’d want to do it.
James Wade: I work with white guys at the arsenal that used to walk. He would walk to work sometimes from Blacksburg.

Keywords: Christiansburg, Virginia; cleaners; jobs; Monogram Cleaners; pack department; Radford Arsenal; transportation

Subjects: Radford Army Ammunition Plant (U.S.); Work Opportunitites

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: That’s a good twelve, fourteen mile walk. Yeah, that’s a good walk. Well, let’s see what other issues here. We touched on the issues of Black business. What kind of Black businesses kind of stand out in your mind? Black owners of businesses, people who had standing communities and kind of commanded respect.
James Wade: Well, my grandfather used to have a shoe shop here.
Michael Cooke: Okay. What was his name?
James Wade: Clisby Wade.
Michael Cooke: What was that again?
James Wade: Clisby Wade.
Michael Cooke: Clisby Wade.
James Wade: Yeah this was in the [19]50s, late [19]40s, early [19]50s. He had a shoe shop down in town.
Michael Cooke: Is that where the present shoe shop is located or?
James Wade: No, it’s where the shoe shop is down there now.
Michael Cooke: Yeah, the same one.
James Wade: Yeah, it’s right in that area.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: That’s not really all that little. It’s a really sound business.
James Wade: Right now it is.
Michael Cooke: Yeah.
James Wade: And I guess Charles Johnson and his barber shop there.
Michael Cooke: And what about even before Charles Johnson?
James Wade: Well, just had the clubs around here. We always ate at the Chicken Shack. Audrey Mills got a club down the mountain. I think it was called Rosa or something like that. Used to have a little club down there.
Michael Cooke: What kind of things went on down there?
James Wade: Oh just dancing.
Michael Cooke: Dancing.
James Wade: Partying.
Michael Cooke: Did they have a jukebox or did they have live music?
James Wade: No, just jukebox. They didn’t have live music until they got the hall and rented a band or something.
Michael Cooke: So you went down to his old place?
James Wade: Yeah. I think it was called Rosé. I don’t remember.
Michael Cooke: It sure was the road’s end once you got down to Nellies Cave. [Laughs].
James Wade: That was in that way. The road’s going through that now but then-
Michael Cooke: Back then, that was the end of the road.
James Wade: I think that was the name of the road too. See, that was larger than the Chicken Shack so.[inaudible 31:00]
Michael Cooke: How did people socialize in addition to those places?
James Wade: Oh we had fights all the time.
Michael Cooke: Fights?
James Wade: Yeah. They got over it. Some people [inaudible 31:15]
Michael Cooke: Oh they stole alcohol?
James Wade: No. Uh-uh. They’d bring it with them.
Michael Cooke: Oh, they’d bring it with them.
James Wade: You know, when people got together, you know, got too close and get kind of heated.

Keywords: Audrey Mills; Black businesses; Charles Johnson; Chicken Shack; Clisby Wade; dancing; music; Nellies Cave; shoe shop; social life

Subjects: Black Businesses; Social Life

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s see. Were you a member of a social organization? Boy Scouts or?
James Wade: I was a Boy Scout. We had a Boy Scout troop.
Michael Cooke: Where did it operate from? What office-
James Wade: The Odd Fellows Hall up in town [31:47].
Michael Cooke: Oh, yeah. On Gilbert Street.
James Wade: Yeah
Michael Cooke: So that’s where the-
James Wade: [Inaudible 31:52]
Michael Cooke: Who was the Scout Master?
[Break in recording]
Michael Cooke: Okay, you were mentioning that you were in the...was it Boy Scouts or?
James Wade: Boy Scouts.
Michael Cooke: And that your Scout Master was Reverend Archie Richmond and could you talk about that experience of being a Boy Scout? And talk a little bit about Reverend Archie Richmond.
James Wade: That’s a long time ago now. He was real good to us. He used to take us around camping and everything. You know Ed Lewis? Walter Lewis?
Michael Cooke: Yeah Walter Lewis.
James Wade: He was almost Scout Master. We didn’t have that many in it but you know they-
Michael Cooke: It wasn’t integrated was it?
James Wade: No. Unh-uh.
Michael Cooke: This is-
James Wade: But they made sure we did everything that the scouts, you know, was doing all over. You know, like going to camping and going to….We went to Camp Powhatan and we went to down [inaudible 32:51] and camp with some other local country down there-
Michael Cooke: Was that integrated?
James Wade: No. Unh-uh. Well, yeah it was that year. But see, still we was all in our little group.
Michael Cooke: But at least you could go to that, and it would be white and Black scouts there.
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: And there was no Black part of the jamboree was there?
James Wade: No uh-uh. [inaudible 33:13]
Michael Cooke: Wherever you— first come first serve right?
James Wade: Yeah, it was pretty nice. And that’s basically what we did in scouts.
Michael Cooke: Now, could you tell a little bit more about Reverend Archie Richmond? Was he active in the community in terms of Civil Rights or just simply being active as an interested party in the community?
James Wade: I guess he was more like an interested party to me because he was a pastor down on [inaudible 33:46] church. I went to a Baptist church but we all was in the same neighborhood and all. So everybody got along with each other and we talked about different things. Everybody would try to help each other.
Michael Cooke: Was there any NAACP activity in this area?
James Wade: Not during that time, no.
Michael Cooke: Not of any great significance. Was there any other Black organizations that existed? Social or political or any combination of both?
James Wade: No. Not to my knowledge.
Michael Cooke: Are you familiar with the fraternal organizations in this? Such as the Odd Fellows? You weren’t never a member of the Odd Fellows?
James Wade: No. Unh-uh.
Michael Cooke: Or the Mason’s? Or-
James Wade: Well, they had a Mason’s. I started in that, but I didn’t finish it. It’s in Christiansburg.
Michael Cooke: Right. Right.
James Wade: I asked some friends just to go. I worked swing shift so it was hard for me to-
Michael Cooke: Yeah, be involved in things.
James Wade: Be involved in a lot of stuff.

Keywords: Boy Scouts; Camp Powhatan; Christiansburg, Virginia; Civil Rights; Gilbert Street; Masonic Order; NAACP; Odd Fellows; Reverend Archie Richmond; the Masons; Walter Lewis

Subjects: Social Organizations

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Well, I’m trying to think of anything else we left out here, but I believe we covered all the ground we want. Of course, you weren’t involved in mining so you can’t talk about mining. Can’t talk about-
James Wade: I’m not that old. [Laughter]
Michael Cooke: Well, I guess by the time you were growing up, the mines were really kind of played out.
James Wade: Yeah, they was kind of played out by then.
Michael Cooke: Yeah cause-
James Wade: Most people that mined was down in Wake Forest.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm. I guess the last question, why so many Black people left this area that you grew up with? Because I know you grew up with the Dobbins.
James Wade: Well, they went to college, in the service, and they got some good jobs, and they never came back.
Michael Cooke: There was no reason for them to come back?
James Wade: No. But, I noticed in the last few years a lot of people that I had gone to school with at Christiansburg Institute moved back to this area now. It seems like it’s not really [inaudible 35:49] A lot of them are moving back.
Michael Cooke: Yeah that is true because for instance I know people in Nellies Cave that moved back like Aubrey Mills Jr. has moved back. He was living in Northern Virginia and I believe Jessie Eves and Thomas Eves-
James Wade: They was up in Washington.
Michael Cooke: They were in Washington. They now came back to the Wake Forest area. So you are getting some people who went away to find some opportunity. And they may have got some opportunities but, well, I rather come back.
James Wade: It’s a lot nicer that way. I like it here. I think I’ll stay here.
Michael Cooke: In terms of crime, I mean a limited amount of crime. I remember I lived in Blacksburg for a while. I kept looking at the newspapers and there was no crime. In fact, it was about a year before something got in the newspaper that was—or maybe two years before there was a crime. There was a robbery of a fast food place and that was almost....I mean, that was such a shock to the community that something like that had happened.
James Wade: I guess the biggest thing that had happened was some guy that killed his family out here behind the mall. They were shot right there behind the shopping center on University. Mall. They shot a guy a block away here, up the street here on the sidewalk. And they killed this I think it was the Dryer family.
Michael Cooke: Were they Black?
James Wade: Unh-uh.
Michael Cooke: They were white.
James Wade: Yeah.
Michael Cooke: Were the people—the perpetrator of this crime—were they white?
James Wade: No they was white. But I guess that was the biggest crime.
Michael Cooke: So this is not like your typical-
James Wade: Not like Roanoke.
Michael Cooke: Not like Roanoke or any other place that is a big urbanized sprawling community which has everything and everybody in it. You don’t have that kind of bad chemistry here. That’s good to say. Well, I guess on that note, I guess we can conclude the interview. Thank you for your cooperation.
James Wade: Thank you.

Keywords: Aubrey Mills; Christiansburg Institute; community; Dobbins; Jessie Eaves; mining; Nellies Cave; Northern Virginia; Thomas Eaves; Wake Forest, Virginia; Washington

Subjects: Christiansburg Industrial Institute; coal mines and mining

Partial Transcript: Michael Cooke: Oh, one last thing, you mentioned before that some Black students...You remember the early Black students who were boarding with your relative?
James Wade: Let’s see, I might remember last names. Let’s see Bob [Robert] Wells was the first Black guy. Matthew Winston and-
Michael Cooke: And his son, by the way, is a student at [Virginia] Tech.
James Wade: Is he?
Michael Cooke: Yeah. So second gen—
James Wade: I would like to meet him.
Michael Cooke: He's a second generation [Virginia] Tech student.
James Wade: I’d like to meet him. And a guy named Wilson.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm.
James Wade: And Charlie Yates. He’s still living here.
Michael Cooke: Yes. He’s a professor in the engineering—
James Wade: Okay and a guy named Jerry. I can’t remember his whole name, but we called him Jerry. He was a football player, a Black guy that used to board next door to me.
Michael Cooke: Did they ever have any conversations with people about their, you know, things that they endured on campus?
James Wade: I don’t know. I hadn’t even talked to them.
Michael Cooke: You just knew they were in the area. Never really had a close relationship with them.
James Wade: Well when they lived next door. I used to go over there, cause I was young you know, I used to go over there and talked to them about everyday.
Michael Cooke: What did they typically talk about?
James Wade: You know, they were just typical guys. You know, there wasn’t nothing special. You know, they were just trying to get an education.
Michael Cooke: Um-hm
James Wade: [Inaudible 39:21]
Michael Cooke: I guess there wasn’t much for them to do socially.
James Wade: No. Unh-uh.
Michael Cooke: Did they socialize with people in the area?
James Wade: Yeah, I mean they would come over and talk to us and everything, just people down there. I guess everybody knew them cause they were something new since Blacks just started to go to Virginia Tech.
Michael Cooke: What about that novelty? Did people think that there was a day that rest of the things were in store since this day had arrived?
James Wade: No, I guess they were just glad to see Blacks getting an education you know so.
Michael Cooke: Especially in this area which seemed to have a place of limit on how much education a Black person can have.
James Wade: [Inaudible 40:05]
Michael Cooke: So the end of Jim Crow definitely was over when that was going on.

Keywords: Black students; Bob Wells; Charlie Yates; Matthew Winston; Robert Wells; social life

Subjects: football; Virginia Polytechnic Institute

Partial Transcript: Okay, well I guess on that note, I think we covered all ground and hopefully all the loose ends that we can possibly find. Okay, Michael Cooke: I thank you for your cooperation.
James Wade: Okay.
Michael Cooke: All right.
[End of interview]