VT Stories Oral History with Todd Barnes, October 2, 2015 (Ms2016-015)

David Cline: This is David Cline for the Virginia Tech Stories Oral History Project. Today is October 2nd and we are at the Alumni Center. The year is 2015 and if you could introduce yourself for the recording. Start with 'my name is' so we get a nice complete sentence, and tell us your name and where and when you were born.

Todd Barnes: My name is Todd Barnes. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, born the 26th of February in 1953.

David C: What I would like to do Todd is to start by talking about where you were raised and your family, and sort of years before Tech. We're obviously going to be talking about Tech today and the rest of your life after Tech, but Tech has what has drawn us to this table. But if you could tell me a little bit about your upbringing and your family. I would love to hear about where you're from.

Todd B: Sure. I grew up in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania. My dad was from Luisa County Virginia and is the Virginia Tech connection. My mom grew up and was born and raised in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, so when we grew up in the family my sister and I we had to choose occasionally between being a rebel or a Yankee, depending on what was going on in the family. Lived in the same house as far as I know, pretty much from a young kid all the way up through graduation from Tech. I went to high school in Pittsburgh.

David C: You said your father was a Virginia Tech connection?

Todd B: My dad graduated from Tech in 1938.

David C: Were you raised on stories of Tech?

Todd B: No. Actually he was fairly quiet about it. He wasn't a big storyteller, but in high school we made a road trip to come down and see his brother and wife and my cousins in Blackstone, Virginia, and then came through Blacksburg. Part of the connection there, of course he wanted to show off where he went to school and take a look at it. And part of the connection which was a real odd connection, our next door neighbor their son married the daughter of James Boone and Martha Boone, who James Boone was the treasurer of Virginia Tech at the time, and Martha Boone ran the front desk at the Donaldson 3:00Brown Continuing Education Center, the hotel portion of it. So we stopped in to see them as well and made the connection, just hello at that time. And I hadn't really decided, so this was probably the summer of my junior year in high school. In an attempt to try and limit the financial constraints on my dad I was applying and checking in to the possibilities of an appointment at the 4:00military academies and found out that since I'm color blind I wasn't going to get to fly, so the Air Force Academy was out. Since my dad had been in the Army after Virginia Tech there was always this deep rivalry with West Point Cadets, so my heart really wasn't in that. So I also applied for an ROTC scholarship, and out of my laziness I applied to Virginia Tech early decision, and that's the only application I filled out for college. Got accepted and that was good enough for me. And quite frankly that's all the research that I did at that time, which part of the story later on, I'll tell you about one of my roommates who did deep research into engineering schools. And so I just by luck ended up at one of the 5:00best engineering schools in the nation, so I was kind of happy about the results of that.

David C: Did you know as a youngster that that was going to be an interest of yours?

Todd B: Engineering?

David C: Yeah.

Todd B: My dad was a metallurgical engineer and worked for a steel company in Pittsburgh at the time of my growing up. And so I loved math and science so it just kind of seemed a natural, although I really love the outdoors, so I toyed with forestry, looked at Syracuse University for example as well as Virginia Tech, but decided on civil engineering because I get to be outdoors building things, so it just kind 6:00of fell in place.

David C: So you made that decision and got in early decision so that's all she wrote?

Todd B: That was it. Before Christmas my senior year I was accepted and that was decision made.

David C: Was your father pleased about you following his footsteps?

Todd B: Yeah, I'm sure he was. He was not real huggy kissy kind of guy and not extremely demonstrative. That was my mom's side of the house, but yeah, I know he was very proud from that respect, yeah.

David C: Did they drive you down when you came to school? Do you remember coming to campus when school started?

Todd B: Yeah. In fact, we did another trip through my cousin's place in Blackstone, Virginia Kenbridge, and my oldest first cousin had graduated from here as a mechanical engineer. He was already gone from campus at that time, and his younger brother was here as a, I don't know if he was a junior or senior. I think he might have been a senior my freshman year, 7:00so we went through their place first before we drove here and dropped me off at campus. Which was nice having my cousin here. Not a whole lot of social connection. Your rat year you're not allowed to really be a social animal anyhow, but I got to leave with him and go to his place for Thanksgiving and my family came down, so that was a nice added benefit.

David C: So you had seen the campus before because you had come through with your father, but do you remember what it was like sort of stepping on to the campus knowing that this was going to be your home for a while?

Todd B: You know, I don't have a whole lot of deep memories of it because the day I arrived it was a week prior to school starting. The freshman rats, we had to report. I had to sign the scholarship paperwork, and I think it was finally hitting me at that point that I was signing up for four years of college, four years on active duty, and two years in Reserve, and so in one fell swoop ten years of my life was dictated. [Chuckles] And then the next thing you know you... I must have been introduced to my dorm room, my barracks room, and then you're getting a haircut and getting your uniform, and I'm sure I got to say goodbye to my dad the next day, but after that it's just a 9:00whirlwind.

David C: I've heard stories of the beginnings of being a rat. Do you remember any of that, that first week of being introduced to your new status?

Todd B: Yeah, sure. You had to learn how to stand at attention and they start putting you through physical fitness, push-ups and sit-ups and all of that. The first week was just you and select upper classmen, so a few sophomores who did most of the yelling, and then some juniors who did most of the mentoring, so it was kind of a neat introduction to them and just getting to know some of the rudimentary aspects of discipline. The real tough part is I 10:00recall really started maybe toward the end of that week and certainly when the upper classmen starting arriving and then it became extremely strict. Just to walk from your dorm room to the bathroom you would have to square off every corner. So if you walked from this corner of this room and you have a column in the way you have to square every corner just to get to the bathroom. You had to look straight ahead. In the dining hall you had to square your meals where you take a bite you're looking straight ahead. You had to raise your fork straight up then into your mouth, same way going back down. A lot of things like that 11:00really meant I think to break you down in a way as an individual and then start to bring you together as a group. So your fellow rats they did a lot of things with us to torment us that actually were meant to bring us together as a strong class group. And then ultimately I went in the military and ultimately retired from the military, but that discipline is very important for the effectiveness of the military quite frankly, so it worked. It worked.

David C: As you look back on it, especially those kinds of things that you're describing do you look back at that fondly or why did they put me through that?

Todd B: Um, quite honestly I hated my rat year. I was terribly distressed. And probably I 12:00guess maybe it would be late winter I was ready to quit. I remember going down to the Donaldson Brown Center to Ms. Boone, I will refer to her as 'mom' because I called Mr. Boone 'dad' and her 'mom', went to her at the front desk, went behind the front desk into her office and just bawled and cried and she just let me. And I told my mom I wanted to leave. Growing up in Pittsburgh a lot of my friends went to Penn State, so I want to quit, I want to go to Penn State. She said, "Think about it. Don't worry." And I knew my dad would have been terribly 13:00disappointed. I honestly to this day don't know if he ever knew that I was at that point. Ms. Boone just let me come over to their house. It was within walking distance of the campus, so I would go over there on a Friday night on a pass and they just let me chill out and think about it. I think maybe about that time there were a couple of success stories that occurred that may have had something to do with my just sticking it out. I was on the swim team and in February of my rat year the state championships were at VMI. I was on the final relay that we won. In fact, I was the anchor on it and we beat them, so for a 14:00while I could do no harm with the upper classmen you know, so they totally let me go. I think they may have known that I was thinking about quitting too when I think back on it, and so I think they lightened up and just kind of let me do my thing and study and swim. So I stuck it out and sophomore year through my senior year with what was really good about the Corps was the structure. Quiet hours, ability to study, very few distractions. There was no major horseplay in the dorms. And once you got to know the rules - making your bed, inspections, 15:00having your closet a certain way it just became kind of natural, and I think that was real good for me. That was really the first time being away from home anyhow, and so having that as a structure was kind of like a substitute for mom and dad telling me to make my bed and wash the dishes.

David C: What year was your first year here?

Todd B: I got here in the fall of 1971. I graduated in '75.

David C: I was thinking about that this morning when you were here...you 16:00live in interesting times. Those were certainly interesting times, especially in terms of our military involvement and then to be headed into a military career. What was going on on campus? What was going on in your mind in terms of that?

Todd B: Vietnam was a big deal at that time and news reports all the time about casualties and the number of counts of deaths and so forth. Again, I think oblivious to politics and the world around me more than I really should have been. I didn't worry about it. Whatever will be will be type of attitude. 1972, 17:00so this would have been in my rat year, there were some protests on the Mall at campus. I think it was on the Mall as opposed to on the drill field. I'm not sure, because our dorms were right close to both and we didn't participate in it. I stayed away. I wouldn't have been allowed out of the dorm anyhow as a rat. So here you are, walking around campus. We were down to only about 400 of us in the Corps. You're a rat. You're wearing a white belt which distinguishes you from everybody else. Your hair in an inch or less long when the civilian students, the guys would all have relatively long hair, and you knew the girls were staring at you and it wasn't because you were handsome, or at least you felt that way. In reality, I think one of the strong points of Tech is 18:00the connection of a lot of students to alums, their parents, and they were actually much much more conservative than I would have given them credit for at that time. And a lot of them had a lot of military ties through their parents, and certainly with their being an alum there would have been connections to the Corps of Cadets anyhow. So you make these things up in your own mind that I feel miserable because I'm a rat. I feel miserable because I've got no social life. I feel miserable because my hair is short and everybody else's is long and I stick out like a sore thumb, all that garbage, but after that it was okay. And then of 19:00course when I graduated, 1975 was when the mass exodus out of Saigon, and all of a sudden I wasn't faced with having to go to war. In fact, my whole career in the military I never went to war anywhere. Because Desert Storm/Desert Shield occurred and I was in Hawaii stationed there and I think we sent one captain from our unit there, but none of us in a major way had to go there, so I don't know, just went with the flow.

David C: But say in '73 or '74 you couldn't necessarily have anticipated what was going to happen.

Todd B: No, no.

David C: Was it something you all talked about it in the Corps or in ROTC?

Todd B: Yeah, we did. But you've got to understand, I had signed the paper for that scholarship my freshman year. Part of the provisions of that were if you resign 20:00from this you are going to pay back as an enlisted, so do I stick it out and become an officer or do I quit my scholarship and have to go in as a Spec 4 or a Private, Private First Class, Spec 4, even a Sergeant. I would have much rather gone in as an officer. At that point the decision had already been made and I was just going to do the best I could in my college studies and hopefully get better choices then as an officer.

David C: How about your studies, can you tell me a little bit about finding your path into what kind of engineering you wanted to do?

Todd B: Sure. Pre-engineering.

David C: Particular professors.

Todd B: You gave me the list of possible subjects before and I honestly can't remember a single professor's name. I can visualize a few of them and freshman year you take a lot of pre-engineering, introductory engineering courses and there were some there that I thought were real good. But they sit you down right away and take a look to your left, take a look to your right. At the end of your 22:00four years only one of you will be left, so they scare you off right away. In fact, my college roommate, my freshman and my senior year roommate changed his major five times from pre-engineering and finally ended up as an accounting major at the end of all of it.

David C: Our dirty secret in history by the way is that we get all the engineers. [Laughs]

Todd B: Yeah. Well, yeah. We used to refer to it as pre-business instead of engineering.

David C: Yeah. So you survived that.

Todd B: Yeah. In fact, my freshman year studying was easier than it was for a lot of others. I had already taken calculus in high school, and I didn't take the exams you take these days to be able to opt out of taking classes, so I took calculus over again. What I didn't realize until I got into 23:00it was my whole senior year in high school was crammed into the first ten weeks, here we were on the quarter system at the time, but I got an A because of that. So that also endeared me in some ways to the upper classmen, because okay, well this kid can put up with this crap that we're firing at him, and he can swim and he gets good grades. So that got me through the toughest times, because a lot of the math and the science part I had already had. It was a repeat just kind of reinforcing the foundation.

David C: Let me ask you more about the Boones, because they sounded like they played an important role.

Todd B: Yeah.

David C: You met them just as you got here or you knew them before? You mentioned a 24:00little bit about reaching out to them for some support. What kind of role did they play for you?

Todd B: When my dad brought me down to drop me off we got here and went by their house just to say hello and make the reaquaintance with them. And I think their daughter was here who had married our next door neighbor too as I recall. So we made that connection and then I get dumped off at the barracks and dad leaves. Going through - I don't remember, it was probably one or two weeks into classes and Friday night we were allowed to go to Squires, the student center. I think we could drink 3.2 beer at the time and I 25:00didn't really care to participate in that and I wanted to distance myself from the Corps of Cadets upper classmen, whatever. So I walked probably a quarter of a mile to a half mile to their house. And then their daughter was going to Blacksburg High School and I think I went to a football game, and I didn't know until later that I was in violation of my pass privileges. So I never told anybody. I never told the upper classmen as far as I know because nobody saw me to my knowledge. And so I never turned myself in for the demerits that I would 26:00have gotten, although I heard later I think a couple of the juniors had actually gone to the game too and I just kept quiet. But every chance I got then, every Friday night or Saturday night I would walk this short distance off campus, go to their house. And they were avid Tech fans so they would go to the game and Saturday after the game I would go there and we would have dinner. I would fall asleep on their couch and Mr. Boone would wake me up in enough time, because he had been in the Corps of Cadets, he would wake me up and drive me back to campus so that I could sign back in the barracks before I was AWOL and would get demerits. And so it was just very comfortable, a no-risk environment and I just 27:00became closer and closer with them as years went. He was a very quiet stoic man and Mom Boone was more the demonstrative, you know, hug you and make you feel comfortable.

David C: A little bit similar to your own parents it sounds like.

Todd B: Yeah, yeah. Maybe that was the way of the times. There was always at least one or two other "adopted" sons at their house that had gone to Virginia Tech. In fact, I can't remember his last name, but Buster was a Blacksburg friend of their son and he is pictured in the 1973 photo of the NIT Champions basketball team down in the museum downstairs in the Alumni Center. He was a trainer on a team. But he would be there and another guy named Doug, and 28:00so they were older of course and it was just fun. It was fun to be around. The house was always full of people. Anybody, family friends or relatives who would come to town would ultimately either stay at the Boones' house for the games or end up there afterwards. It was really the epitome of tailgating in the house.

David C: That just sounds like such an incredible treasure to have found to get you through in some ways.

Todd B: Yeah, yeah. I would come back to Tech frequently. I got stationed at Fort Belvoir Virginia and Fort Meade Maryland, so it was a relatively easy drive to come down here and stay with them every time. That was more than the draw to come to Blacksburg than the football was, just to come back to see them.

David C: What was your commission when you got out of Tech?

Todd B: I was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Corps of Engineers, the U.S. Army and went to Engineer Officer Basic Course at Fort Belvoir, and then got stationed at Fort Meade Maryland, halfway between Washington, DC and Baltimore.

David C: Can you sort of sketch out for us your professional career or your military career?

Todd B: Sure. As 2nd Lieutenant, platoon leader...excuse me. I spent four years at Fort Meade, so a couple of years as a platoon leader and then executive officer in a company, and then as a 30:00company commander. So you move up in responsibility, first a platoon leader of about 45 soldiers. They were just starting to introduce females into the engineers because it's considered a combat arms and they didn't let females in the combat side of things until just recently quite frankly, so mostly male soldiers. And then one short one platoon leader who got moved to another slot. I ended up with two platoons at the same time putting in 150% effort. You divide 31:00that by 2 you still are only giving each unit 75% of what they deserve, so that was kind of rough for a while and then we got a new batch of 2nd Lieutenants and so I handed one of them off, handed the other platoon off and then moved to executive officer position. I left Fort Meade and I had earned an army fellowship while here at Tech, so I actually could have gone to graduate school right away, chose to go on active duty first. So after four years I went to University of Colorado Boulder, got a master's in civil engineering, primary emphasis in construction management. Found my passion in my first four years as a lieutenant doing construction work with soldiers. Graduated in December of '80 32:00from Boulder and went back to Fort Belvoir for my Office Advance Course. That was an interesting transition, because in grad school I wore cut-offs, flip-flops, rode my bike, grew my hair long, grew a beard, enjoyed graduate school immensely rubbing elbows with civilian engineers who were coming back to get their degrees and had worked in the industry and it was like wow, there's a big world out there besides the Army. So I came back to the Advance Course with an attitude. I cut my hair but didn't cut it real close, kind of sloppy in my 33:00uniform. I was with a class in Advance Course that was two years my junior, so there was one of my close friends from my company here at Virginia Tech, and also from German Club. His wife pulled me aside one day and told me I needed to get my stuff together and get my act together. Those weren't the words she used of course, and buckle down. That was a good awakening realizing I'm still on active duty. I went to grad school. I owe them another four years for them paying my way through grad school and I better buckle down. And I ended up 34:00graduating from the Advance Course as the top graduate after that, thank goodness. I left Fort Belvoir after six months there and went to Airborne School at Fort Benning. I jumped out of a perfectly good airplane five times and that was the end of that.

David C: That's it? [Laughs]

Todd B: Yeah. You're supposed to land on your... There's a five count - your feet, the side of your legs, your thigh, the side of your back or your shoulder, and I would hit feet, butt, head every time. So I drove from Fort Benning back to Pittsburgh I think on one side of my behind because the other side was badly bruised. [Chuckles] Left that and 35:00had a payback assignment, so I got assigned to the civilian side of the Army Corps of Engineers in Honolulu. Beautiful place. They call it Paradise for a reason. I love the outdoors, love sports. You can be on a softball team year-around. You can run with no shirt year- around, and so it was marvelous, a marvelous time. Let me jump back a piece. My junior year in college I went home at Christmas time and fell in love with a high school classmate. We got 36:00engaged Christmas of my senior year in college and got married. She was living in Pittsburgh. She came down for Ring Dance for example. Got married one week after graduation, so June 6th of 1975 I get commissioned. I raised my right hand. I graduate the same day. I get commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant, go home to Pittsburgh, get married a week later and had to take advanced leave from the Army in order to get married and go on my honeymoon. And so my first day of 37:00active duty I start 14 days in the hole on leave. That was an uncomfortable feeling, which has made me hoard my leave time ever since for emergencies or whatever. She became a flight attendant when we were at Fort Meade so after about 21/2 years of marriage she gets stationed in St. Louis and I'm in Fort Meade. Then I go to graduate school and she's in St. Louis, I'm in Colorado. I go back to Fort Belvoir, she's in St. Louis. I go to Hawaii, she's in St. Louis. So for 61/2 more years or so we saw each other on weekends maybe once a month, 38:00and I matured from the guy reading comic books and the Sunday comics during that time and we just kind of grew apart. So married 91/2 years but then we divorced, and I swore I would never...I wasn't thinking of marriage again. But when I was in Hawaii I found my wife there, who had a relatively similar upbringing. Her dad went to UVA and law school and was an international tax lawyer. She grew up around the suburbs of the Maryland side of Washington, DC. Her parents split and she did one year at Taylor Allderdice in downtown Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, so 39:00she had that connection too. And she was living in Hawaii sharing a condo with another girl there, but had moved there originally with a boyfriend before. We got married. I asked her to marry me right after my divorce became final. She's extremely athletic, all the things that I loved about Hawaii. Hell, I got to be on two or three softball teams because they wanted her on the team. They didn't really care whether they got me on the team or not, but because of her I got to be on a team. She's still extremely athletic, a cross-country coach and what-not, so we've been married now for 31 years since we got married in Hawaii.

David C: So you're a Hawaiian now?

Todd B: I'm a Hawaiian resident. They refer to you as a Kama'aina, but you're not Hawaiian. I have no Hawaiian blood. My wife is hapa which means half. Her mother is Japanese from Tokyo, and her dad found her and married her coming off the war. Mother...dad went back in the 40:00military and went back to law school then and then the mother followed with a 2-year-old, the older brother in tow and pregnant with my wife. Hit San Francisco in 1952 and somehow crossed the country. And you can imagine, 1952 what that must have been like for somebody of Japanese descent in this country. She had been a translator so she could speak English enough to certainly get by, but that just shows you the tenacity of the mother's side of the house. And the 41:00dad was a photographic memory, a super intelligent guy. He just died a couple of years ago. So my wife her upbringing was very intellectual, opera. She's well- studied, well-versed and an extremely athletic family too, so yeah.

David C: Very interesting. It sounds like you really found your place and people...

Todd B: Yeah, Hawaii is great.

David C: [Laughs]

Todd B: You don't have to own winter clothes. It's expensive but it's a great place.

David C: Just to take you back to Tech, just briefly you mentioned Ring Dance and your first wife came down for the Ring Dance. Was that like a major experience for you or what was that like?

Todd B: Let me back up a couple of points. My dad had been in the German Club, and so my sophomore year I, and he didn't say much about it, but I had somehow reached out to somebody and asked about it. I'm trying to remember who, but somebody in the Corps of Cadets was a member of the German Club and so I asked him questions, and so I got invited to come and learn about it or whatever. And then you get invited to participate, so it was the closest thing to fraternities that you could get, which were actually outlawed here on 43:00campus at the time. There were frat houses off campus that the University couldn't really do anything about at the time. So sophomore year starting to connect with German Club and we put on dances. Social life had been a big thing for me and the ability to stretch my wings with other than Corps Cadets, with other than engineer students and to satisfy I think the service side, the 44:00community service side of things. It was definitely social club, but the service aspects of it, putting on the dances for the University was a big deal, was a big part of I think why I really liked it, and so to this day I'm still connected with the German Club in a lot of respects. So Ring Dance was not put on by German Club, but having been a class officer I had the connection to it, a lot of the planning of different things. I was actually on the Ring Committee for designing the ring, so yeah, it was a big event. I think everybody, whether you went to German Club dances or not you went to the Ring Dance. The 45:00Corps of Cadets of course we went in a strict white uniform and your sash and we did a saber arch and all of that. And if you look back at the yearbook you'll see the juniors, or I guess the seniors let go of the pig on the floor running around, so it was a fun event.

David C: So you maintained connections with the German Club.

Todd B: Yeah.

David C: You maintained connections with the Boones obviously. What else has sort of kept you hooked into Tech?

Todd B: Um, you know, I donate to the German Club through the Foundation, but also to the 46:00College of Engineering, and so I get the College of Civil and Environmental Engineering publications and the College of Engineering publications. I think that has endeared me to that part of the considerably because it's extremely impressive what those parts of the University had been able to do that I connect with. The tremendous use of research funds and really doing some cutting edge research and coming up with some fantastic things that are valuable to society as a whole. I really enjoy looking through those, and it's the accomplishments of both the faculty and the seniors and graduate students, so I enjoy that 47:00connection.

David C: What do you think about where Tech is now or Tech seems to be heading?

Todd B: I can't help but be impressed. Hell, just driving in on 460 you see the Corporate Research Park. That has grown fantastically and I'm really impressed with that. I'm also glad now to see the connections with the medical side of things. You know when I was here the animal husbandry, the agricultural side of things was big of course, and so it was a natural for the Vet School to be the first foray into the medical side of things. But I often wondered why it 48:00was taking so long to dive into the human side of medicine, so over the last couple of years I'm glad to see that connection now as well.

David C: Any directions that you would prefer to see Tech go into or that would worry you? I mean changing a lot, expanding.

Todd B: You know it's interesting, because when you talk to Mr. Boone who lives here and sees the changes on a day to day basis, "Oh they're saying they want another 6,000 students. They've got too many now and there's too much traffic and you go downtown and there's condos 49:00and apartments being built." So there's certain aspects of growth that do not necessarily always mean development is good. But what I do like is the ability of what appears to be the ability of Virginia Tech and have done a really good job from a master planning perspective. And the growth has been more deliberate, controlled, planned, and I think that's the engineering side of me coming out, because I have been connected with other projects where things seem to be put together on not a shoestring budget, but in a last minute perspective and you have to throw money at it tremendously to make it work. So I have appreciated 50:00Tech's growth and maintaining the ambiance, the Hokie Stone, the look of the campus. There's a few buildings that don't quite mesh, but even those are changing over time as those buildings get demolished and others get put in their place.

David C: Have you seen the new barracks going up?

Todd B: No. I plan to go through that tour this afternoon, and that will be interesting. Because those buildings were all old brick buildings and didn't quite mesh with the rest of the Hokie Stone right across the street, so it will be nice to see things.

David C: Which barracks did you live in?

Todd B: Brodie, Brodie Hall.

David C: Brodie is no more. [Laughs]

Todd B: Yeah, right, right. I think Rasche was the first to come down.

David C: Rasche was first and see they were starting on Brodie I think.

Todd B: That's okay. That's quite all right.

David C: So my office is in Major Williams so I actually know a guy who is an engineer, He came through engineering, came to the Corps and he works in engineering in this area. He walks through Major Williams, "This is where my room was."

Todd B: We had gotten so small when I was here that we only occupied Rasche and Brodie and then I think it was 1973 when the first females came in the Corps of Cadets and then they took over - they started in not Major Williams, but the one across from them. I can't remember what the name of that hall was, because it's like a quad, 52:00right, so you had Brodie here, Rasche, Lane. Major Williams was here, right?

David C: Well.

Todd B: Or was it over here?

David C: It's sort of right here actually.

Todd B: Well this is the Mall, so Rasche was like that, Brodie was like that, so this is Major Williams?

David C: Yeah.

Todd B: Okay. And so L Squad was over here. We had streaking when I was here.

David C: It was the 70s.

Todd B: Yeah. And in fact I think some of the women in this dorm even streaked in their windows with the shades pulled down far enough that you didn't see their face. That was kind of one of the... That would have been my junior or 53:00senior year when that might have happened. [Chuckles] Some of your other questions on here, let me go to some stories that occurred as a rat and some of the things that they do to break you down and bring you together as a class. I was off and the War Memorial Gym was where the swimming pool was, and it got torn down, demolished between my freshman and sophomore year, so sophomore year the swim team we actually drove to Radford and practiced at night at Radford. The pool was 85 degrees. It sapped your strength. You add your travel time there 54:00and back and the time in the pool and I think my sophomore year was one of my toughest from a perspective of sleep deprivation and studying, which is when you really start getting into your engineering classes, so I remember that being kind of rough. But anyhow, as a freshman I'm off to swim practice and I had been given special compensation to eat with the swim team. So we would go to the dining hall right next to the gym, Monteith?

David C: Hmm, right.

Todd B: Behind that I think. And I was allowed actually in civilian clothes to eat with the swim team, and then I would come back to the barracks. And of course my fellow classmates had gone through formation, had marched to dinner, had squared 55:00their meals, had gotten yelled and screamed at and probably got to eat you know a third of their meal before time was up and you're back to your barracks. So one night they got sent on a scavenger hunt I think they referred to it, so it was kind of a wild goose chase, and it was to keep them out of the dorm, out of the barracks enough time so that the upper classmen took our rooms and dismantled them, and put all the mattresses in one room. Took our dress shoes that we just agonized over getting the spit shines on them, beat the toes and 56:00destroyed the shines. Took all the shoelaces and tied them together in knots and put grease or something on the knots so you had a hell of a time getting them off. Actually this would have had happened on a weekend when I was off swimming somewhere with the team and came back. And my roommate had put the place back together, had undone the shoelaces and put my stuff back. Didn't polish my shoes. I mean hell, he was working on his own. But I missed out on all that agony. I thanked my roommate Gary Gilbertson for protecting me that, but I was totally livid. I think this was one of the things that was just like this is totally stupid. Of course they don't do that hazing now and I think it's 57:00probably good. You can accomplish what you need without doing that. But as a group they had to put everything back, so they had to work together. Another time would have been maybe a Thursday night even. We all get called out at 10:30, you get let out of your rooms, the upper classmen did for a break and then lights were out at 11 o'clock. So from 10:30 to 11 was kind of a break time from studying or what-not. But they put all of us freshman rats in one dorm room, so about a dozen of us. We were relatively small groups at that time. Probably in our underwear, in our raincoats, our Corps of Engineer raincoats. The heater turned completely up as high as you possibly can, with rods of tobacco, chewing tobacco put in our mouth and made to do push-ups and 58:00sit-ups. And it wasn't long before others were getting sick because the other guy got sick. You know you just can't help yourself. So you remember the misery too as a group and putting up with these kinds of things and shaving cream and water on the floor and you know, it was gang showers also at the time. Oh, and you had to yell 'flush' when you flushed the toilet if somebody was in the shower because you could get scalded at that time, little things like that that 59:00you remember. When I was a junior - no, maybe as a senior, I can't remember, but upper classmen, another thing that I missed out on, the freshman in order to get back at the upper classmen took all the furniture from my room, our bunkbeds, our desks and what-not, and put it on the tennis court between the quads. I don't know if the tennis courts still exist.

David C: It's not there anymore.

Todd B: And set it up exactly like it was in our dorm room. So my roommate again had to put everything back.

David C: This was your junior year?

Todd B: I think so, so it was a way for the rats to pull pranks. But it was funny because the 60:00dorm rooms had a strip of wood up close to the top of the ceiling and you were allowed to pin stuff onto that. So you would actually nail or pin a blanket and then you could pin posters and what-not onto the blanket on the wall, and that was a way you were allowed to decorate your room. You couldn't put holes in the wall. You couldn't tape anything on the walls. So even that was set up apparently on the tennis court as well.

David C: That's pretty good.

Todd B: So it was pranks all the time. I was not involved with it, but I know while I was here a group had gone up to VMI and they pulled pranks up at VMI.

David C: So when it was your turn, after you make it through your rat year and then 61:00it's your turn to help train the next group of rats do you go easier on them? Having been through it and having some sensitivity to that?

Todd B: Yes, it's interesting. At the end of your rat year you get turned and they really drill you or put you through a lot of harassment. It was worse at VMI. They had to fight. The freshmen had to fight their way up the stairs to the top floor, and I mean fight their way, and once they made it to the top floor they were turned. We didn't have to do that, but nevertheless we still had to go through a lot of 62:00hell, and then all of a sudden at a set time you're turned. And the upper classmen are all of a sudden trying to be your friend, shake your friend. And I can remember putting up with some things toward the end of my rat year because they would be standing there yelling at you. You're at attention. You're allowed to say three things, "Yes sir, no sir, no excuse sir." That's the only three answers you could give. Or how many chins do you have mister? Tuck your chin in. How many chins do you have? 75 sir. And you would stand there and go you know this guy is yelling at me telling me that my shoeshine looks horrible and I know it doesn't, and his looks like he polished his shoes with a Hershey bar. And you just go this is totally ridiculous. So my sophomore year I had a different roommate. His name was Roger Williams. He was a farm boy from Suffolk County, a 63:00peanut farm, a dairy farm, and he was immaculate. And he was so impressive with the freshman because he would come out and he would inspect them, look them up and down and all he had to say to them was, "Mister I know you can do better than that," and he would move on. And they would try so hard to please him and then this other guy in my company, Robert Nelson, he would yell at them and scream at them and tell them they were terrible and they looked horrible and you could see that they had no respect for him. And I think that dichotomy you know impressed me, so my mode of operation was much more positive motivation than the negative motivation, even through my whole career.

David C: So you took that directly into your command?

Todd B: Yeah, absolutely. Yelling at somebody, although I can lose my temper, but every time I would do that I would also find that I would lose control of whatever I was trying to do. As a company commander and yelling at a private and start using swear words and then he would just start swearing to me and I would, "You can't talk to me like that." "Well that's the way you're talking to me." He was right, so yeah, so definitely positive motivation works better. You catch more flies with honey as they say. [Laughs]

David C: Yeah, very interesting. And you talked about, and I will be honest I've heard stories from just about everybody I've talked to about wanting to leave.

Todd B: Yeah.

David C: Usually it's the first night of rat year, but were there folks who didn't make it through?

Todd B: Oh sure.

David C: Was there anyone that was drummed out while you were going in?

Todd B: Oh God. Yeah. And also, and I don't remember names quite frankly, but yeah, we had some of our brother rats leave the first week, probably two or three. And I don't remember any of their names because I was having so much difficulty learning what I was allowed to do and what I wasn't allowed to do. You had no social connection with your brother rats that first week you know, you're just doing push-ups or squaring corners. But yeah, we did lose some now that you 66:00mention it. Drumming out, I think we... I'm sure during the four years we did. I do not remember any details about it, but that also now that you had me look back at that, that crafted my own personal integrity, which can get me in trouble by the way, because I'm very much a black and white person and the world is a huge amount of shades of gray. But we had the Honor Court and you did not cheat. You did not plagiarize. The consequences were way too dire, although 67:00we did have every company maintain a file cabinet full of past tests and study materials and what-not that I honestly don't remember ever looking at it. I knew it existed, and when you think back on it now that could be awful close to being advocating for plagiarism or making it awful tough not to inadvertently plagiarize. But that was helpful. They were very serious about not letting freshman flunk out, and study time was sacrosanct. No upper classmen could come into your room. About a half hour after you came back from dinner until 10:30 68:00you were totally protected. No disturbance, nothing, and study time was big. And if you started flunking classes the tutoring started. People were there to help you. The materials were there to help you if you needed it. I guess my grades were good enough that I never needed to go in and look at past tests and materials, but I'm sure that played a big part in helping some others. But integrity was a big deal I'm sure. My roommate my junior year, Bob Downs, was on the court. He was one of the judges on the Judicial Court, the Corps of Cadet Court, so it was a very important aspect of the Corps of Cadets.

David C: And you said you were a class officer?

Todd B: Yes. I was the Cadet Member at Large. That was another way for me to rub elbows with the civilian side of things at 69:00campus and other things that I would never have been able to had I not reached out like that.

David C: That's also a position that lasted throughout your career at Tech?

Todd B: I think - God, I don't remember when you get elected. I don't know if it was your sophomore year or junior year. It must have been sophomore year, because junior year we would have been heavily involved with the design of the ring and then planning of events and things like that.

David C: So you did it for three years?

Todd B: Yeah, and then you're still connected. Although I've got to tell you, this reunion today is the first one since my 5th year reunion that I've been to, because I've been living somewhere 70:00else in the Army all these years.

David C: Not so easy to get back here from Hawaii.

Todd B: You know I think that's the one thing I would... I don't know how Tech recruits kids quite frankly, because it's hard to get here. When you fly to Roanoke it costs you $300 extra to fly there than Dulles or Reagan or in this case I flew in to Charlotte and drove the three hours up, just because I was going to drive an hour anyhow coming from Roanoke, might as well.

David C: When we stop recording I will talk about that too. [Laughs]

Todd B: Yeah. Okay. Let me see what other things. Oh, I love the spirit. The Corps would march 71:00into the stadium, sit together during the game and then we would have retreat on the drill field afterwards. That tradition was one of those things that you get endeared to and always remember. And a story about walking, walking to the stadium, you know you leave the barracks, the dorm, and you're in your polished shoes, your white plants. We had the blue top. And I learned real quick you don't walk on the grass or you would get demerits, and so you had to stick to the paths. So all the civilian students were walking across the fields and 72:00stuff and you're like, "Oh I can't walk with your over there. I've got to go over here." [Laughs] And so you learn those kind of little anecdotes as well. Swim team ends at the end of February. All of a sudden you stop training intensely and the swim team still would get together and do some other kind of training, but you are used to eating in the dining hall and eating three or four desserts and the pounds start going on right away. And so I think 73:00probably my sophomore year based on the military side of things, and then needing to keep the pounds off is when I started jogging, and I still jog to this day, but would take off around campus. And that was probably one of my favorite things to do was to be able to jog all over the campus and see places and go places when I was allowed to do that just to keep in shape.

David C: That would have been when running was really catching on too.

Todd B: Yeah. It was a few years later I think that Jim Fixx died running a long distance run or whatever, so yeah. I loved walking around the duck pond in the fall just to get away, be by myself, see the fall colors, get away from the pressure of the upper quad, so I would do that a lot of times every chance I got. I think I've covered 74:00almost all of my notes.

David C: Was there any question that wasn't on here that I should have put on here, any question I should have asked you?

Todd B: No. I even covered the pranks, yeah. No, I think it was great. I'm glad I asked you for the preparatory questions.

David C: Yeah, it's helpful to review. You can sort of 'prime the pump' a little bit.

Todd B: Yeah. It allowed me to make some notes. Oh, the other aspect that the Corps of Cadets is really heavy into now, and that is the leadership aspects of it. It wasn't played up at the time, but I can tell you that I think I was well prepared for what I was going to get into 75:00in the military. And it first dawns on you, somewhere in your junior year you go to ROTC summer camp and we had open bay barracks at the time, double bunkbeds and a sergeant or a captain is yelling at you and giving you a hard time and telling you you have to learn how to make a bed and hospital tucks and you have to shine your boots. And all these other civilian ROTC kids are there and they are going, "Oh no, this is going to take me forever." And then the guys from VMI and Norwich and Citadel we all look at each other and go, "What are we 76:00going to do with our spare time?" This is nothing. Clean the barracks. Clean the latrine, big deal. So it was way easier for us, so that was probably your first introduction to what the Corps prepared you for. And then I never found leadership to be a burden. It prepared you for being thrown in as a brand new 2nd Lieutenant in charge of 45 soldiers who knew more about life and knew more about their skills than you did. And thank God I had a platoon sergeant, Sgt. 77:001st Class Archie, short black rotund sergeant who just took care of me and, "Sir, we need to inspect the soldiers tonight because the Company Commander is going to inspect all their gear tomorrow." "Okay, yeah, yeah, good idea Sgt. Archie. Why don't you have them come in and set their stuff up at 5 o'clock?" "Sir, why don't we make it 7 so the guys living off base can go home, get their stuff and come back." "Yeah, yeah, good idea." It was going to happen at 7 o'clock whether I came or didn't come and whether I got involved or didn't. And I swear he had performance objectives that said train the 2nd Lieutenant, and we just got along really great you know. So yeah, that aspect was easy.

David C: Did you in your military career meet other Tech alums, or people that had 78:00come through the Corps or gone to VMI or something and had that kind of recognition?

Todd B: Oh absolutely, sure, and I'm meeting some of them today at the registration and reunion stuff. Some of us are still close. A lot of them are from Virginia. Probably my closest, well my college roommate just retired a year or so ago from the Department of Commerce, and his dad retired as an Infantry Lieutenant Colonel in the Army when he was here with me. I think it's freshman year his dad had retired, and they lived in Fairfax and he's an avid "Deadskin" fan and I was a Steeler fan. But yeah, we still keep in touch. 79:00Bo Tucker, Edward Bowen Tucker, he was in another company but he was my classmate and he was a civil engineering student also. And in the Army's infinite wisdom he got commissioned in Signal Corps and he branch transferred back to the Corps of Engineers after two years. We actually get a lot of history majors in the Corps of Engineers believe it or not. But we keep in touch and he's retired from the Army, but he's a City Engineer for Warrenton, Virginia. So he's coming down and his roommate is coming down who is a navigator on C141s for 80:00the Air Force, who I ran into at the back gate of Cadena Air Force Base in Okinawa when we were both on active duty. "Gordon, what are you doing here?" So yeah, you keep those ties for sure.

David C: Yeah. I will give you a couple more of my cards because I would love to talk to these other guys too.

Todd B: Yeah. Especially if you want to also talk to Dad Boone.

David C: I would love to talk to him, yes, absolutely.

Todd B: I tried to talk him into coming with me this afternoon over here to introduce you, but he, "Nah, I don't want to sit there."

David C: Well no, I'll come to him, absolutely.

Todd B: He's a storyteller too.

David C: Terrific.

Todd B: And I would love to read his transcript.

David C: We'll get his permission and then we'll make sure it happens. Yeah, absolutely.

Todd B: Yeah, his stories have got to be really good.

David C: Yeah. Had a long view of this area.

Todd B: Well, I'll give you another story that's not mine. My coach, swim coach had been in the Corps of Cadets. God, I can't remember his name. But I think he had been in the Corps maybe like '64. He lived in Monteith Hall and told a story about freshmen flushing a M80, you know, a large firecracker down the toilet and had blown it up and upper classmen 82:00sitting on the toilets and the water just gushing out of other bathrooms. So there were pranks all the time here.

David C: Thank you so much. Anything else?

Todd B: No. I talked a long time.

David C: No. This is terrific. This is really terrific.

Todd B: This is going to be a hard read.

David C: No, not at all. Not at all. It's really enjoyable. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate.

Todd B: This last story is, he was in my company as a freshman, but he was not my roommate as a freshman. He became my roommate my junior year, Bob Downs. I mentioned to you before that I applied early decision and I lucked out. He was the exact opposite. He did a huge amount of research when he was in high school on engineering schools. He knew he was going to be a 83:00civil engineer. He wanted the very best, and in his comparison Virginia Tech did not require all the humanities side that these other engineering schools did. And they were more intense on the technical engineering classes, and so that was his reasoning. He hated homework and some classes grade you not just on your test results, but on your homework grades as well. So my diploma and my professional engineering license actually should say 'Todd Partial Credit 84:00Barnes', but he got dinged on some classes and got a B or even a C because he didn't do his homework. But he would take the exams. He would ace them and he would retain it, whereas I had to do every homework problem. I had to just cram and study and do the problems in order for me to be able to retain it. And a story that I hesitate to tell this part, because he doesn't know this, but the deal that we had was whichever one of us ended up with the highest grade point average at the end got to commission the other one. So you would get commissioned first and then you would turn around and then swear the other guy 85:00in. And it meant so much to him, his grade point average, that I lied to him about my final grades my senior year and let him commission me. He doesn't know that. [Laughs] But it was neck to neck down, probably a hundredth or a thousandth of a point in our grade point averages at the end of the time. But he's brilliant, and he's a practicing engineer and he probably has forgotten more than I will ever know about civil engineering.

David C: Great. That's a great story.

Todd B: That's the end