Oral History with Lisa Barroso and Mark Barroso, March 2, 2019 (Ms2019-001)

Ms2019-001

Interviewee: Lisa Barroso

Interviewee: Mark Barroso

Interviewer: Joe Forte

Interviewer: Adrian Ridings

Date of Interview: March 2, 2019

F: My name is Joe Forte. I will be acting as interviewer for this session recording oral history narrations associated with the fortieth anniversary observance of the 1979 Gay Student Alliance event known as Denim Day. Interviewing with me is Adrian Ridings, narrators today are Mark Barroso and Lisa Barroso. Slade Lellock is running audio and video. We're in Newman Library on March 2, Saturday, 2:17 PM. Welcome, Mark and Lisa. Would you mind introducing yourselves, please?

LB: Sure. I'm Lisa Anne Barroso. Was born in Hampton, Virginia, 1961, and came to Tech the fall of 1979 . . . and have never left. I came at seventeen years old and still here.

[Laughter]

MB: Yes, you are.

LB: Yes, I am.

MB: So, I'm Mark Barroso. Am I looking at you, or the camera?

F: Sure, yeah, me.

MB: Okay. I'm Mark Barroso. I was born in 1957, year of the Chevy in air force base, Germany. Moved to Hampton shortly thereafter, I guess when I was three, and grew up in Hampton, Virginia. I came to Tech in the fall of [19]75. I did the five-year plan, and left in [19]80.

LB: Yeah.

MB: Yeah. Yeah.

F: Lisa, was the fact that Mark was here have an effect on your choice of college?

LB: Well, actually, our eldest brother was the first to come to Tech. So yeah, 2:00then Mark followed and I was determined I wasn't. But I didn't get accepted to UVA because I figure they saw my brothers went to Tech. So, yeah.

MB: They probably saw what kind of trouble I was causing here.

[Laughter]

LB: Didn't want me.

MB: Didn't want none of that at their school.

LB: Might be, might be. So yeah, it kind of turned into family history. Yeah.

MB: I never thought about going anywhere else, honestly. College was kind of a generic thing, you know? It's like, to me, they were kind of all alike. I just didn't give it any thought. Mike was here, I was like, "Okay, I'll do that."

LB: Yeah.

F: T-shirt checks out and everything.

[Laughter]

MB: Yeah, I mean, I had the shirt.

LB: Right.

MB: No, I didn't have the shirt, but . . .

LB: Yeah.

MB: I just didn't put a lot of thought into it.

F: So, you're just going college 'cause--

MB: And it was affordable.

F: Yeah.

MB: It's what our parents could afford, too.

LB: Yeah.

MB: I don't think--

LB: Yeah. They always laughed and said for me, I had a lot of activity in 4-H, which, here, Virginia Tech is the mother of 4-H. So, that for me also was kind of like, "Okay, I'm going to follow in my brother's footsteps after all."

F: So ag sciences, is that what you were looking toward?

LB: Biology. I thought I was going to be a pediatrician, but I'm a research scientist instead, which is cool. So, yeah.

F: What'd you do here, Mark?

MB: I was a sociology major, but I always knew I was going to go into journalism. I took all the journalism courses, but I thought that sociology would give me a framework to look at things. So, I got a B.S. in sociology.

F: So, high school still, you were journalism?

MB: No. High school--

LB: Rebel.

MB: Was just rock 'n roll, really.

LB: Yeah. He plays the--

[Laughter]

F: I was just tracing back your "always knew you were going into journalism" statement. But from college on, you figured journalism was your track.

MB: Yeah. For me, Woodward and Bernstein just did the Watergate scandal, and they became heroes. Actually, there are a lot of people my age who went into journalism because of that movie and that book. Speaking truth to power was something that appealed to me . . . and it was fun. Joining the Collegiate Times 5:00was kind of like joining an anti-fraternity fraternity at the time.

F: So, speaking truth to power, then. Is that what you did at the Collegiate Times? Is that the trouble that you got into that you referred to earlier?

MB: Yeah, we'll have to talk about that later though.

[Laughter]

F: Oh, later.

LB: Yeah.

MB: Yeah, I ended up being the managing editor of the Collegiate Times, but I worked there four years, saw the transition from--no, we had typewriters the whole time. We never had computers. But I saw the transition from lead type to offset printing.

F: Yeah. It wasn't in Squires, then?

MB: Yeah.

F: Was it in the basement? Was it?

MB: Yeah. It was on the third floor.

F: Because it used to be in the basement of Dietrick, too, didn't it? The first floor of Dietrick for a while? No.

MB: It was before my time, or after my time.

F: But it's back in Squires now.

MB: But, I think when they remodeled Squires they did have to leave.

F: Oh, that's why they were there.

LB: Oh, got it.

MB: But there was a third floor--it was right around the corner from WUVT and the yearbook. We were all on the same hall.

F: That's the way it is now.

MB: Okay. So, like for me I would work on the paper and then at midnight go do a DJ session on WUVT.

F: So you did a radio show, too.

MB: I did radio. Should I tell him?

LB: It's part of history, man. Yeah.

[Laughter]

MB: So, radio was wide open then. There was no adult supervision after midnight. So I had a radio show, it was called "Nocturnal Emissions." "Coming in your ear."

LB: [Laughter] Yeah. My brother. So, yeah.

F: Music, or also speaking truth to power?

MB: Yeah, that whole, called it a Hunter S. Thompson kind of thing, too. Rock 'n roll spoke truth to power as well. So, it was all part of that.

F: So, there was a commentary component to your radio show.

MB: Yeah, yeah. But it was after midnight. People didn't want to hear me talk. I was just stream of consciousness stuff. But, it was mainly about the music. Then I dated the yearbook editor. It was all a very incestuous place.

LB: I could address that.

MB: So, where do you want to go next?

F: Wherever you guys want.

LB: Well, I was getting ready to say that--yeah, I don't know either. I was going to comment about . . . she was the one who outed me to Mark. She blew my cover.

F: How did that go? What's the story there?

LB: She was looking for a place to live, and I had just met up with some lesbians and we were going to rent a house. So, I felt for whatever reason the need to let her know, to be honest, that there were going to lesbians living there. And if that bothered her, I wanted her to know ahead of time. But please don't tell my brother! I'm not out! Yeah, well, that didn't work. So it was like at midnight, I think after one of his night shows, that I get this call. I was in Ambler Johnston--

MB: Which is hilarious, because--

LB: Oh, yeah.

MB: My father--Ambler Johnston was--

LB: Sixth floor.

MB: Was girls only.

LB: Virgin vault, they called it.

MB: The virgin vault.

LB: The top two floors.

MB: My father--

LB: Yes.

MB: Put her in there specifically to keep her away from boys.

LB: [Laughter]

MB: Right?

LB: The irony, right? The irony!

MB: Yeah. He was worried about them boys getting a hold of you.

LB: Yes, yeah.

MB: So I put you in the virgin vault.

LB: Yes, exactly. [Laughter] Which was perfect.

MB: Yeah. Perfect.

LB: Perfect. So yeah, so Mark wasn't too happy about it, pretty upset about it.

MB: Now, come on, be fair.

LB: Oh, because of, "It's going to kill our mother, you're going to kill our mother, this is going to kill her! It's gonna kill her! How can you do this to your mother?" Blah, blah.

MB: Blah, yeah. That's true. I didn't care. I didn't have an opinion about your sexuality.

LB: But you sure were--I mean, I was scared. I was scared.

MB: I was only concerned about our mother, that's all.

LB: Yeah.

MB: Handling it.

LB: Right, right. No, but you scared me that night. It was like, damn. That was my first coming-out experience, really, in terms of . . . [Laughter] it was like, fuck. I don't know if I can handle this or not. That was--

MB: Yeah, I was being protective of Mom. But I never once tried to change your mind or--

LB: Right.

MB: Criticize you for--

LB: True.

MB: Being gay or whatever.

LB: True.

MB: Because it really was a kind of . . . the [19]70s were still the leftover [19]60s.

LB: Yeah.

MB: It was kind of like, live and let live. And I believe that.

LB: Yeah.

MB: Everybody should be happy . . . just don't mess with my mother.

[Laughter]

LB: Right, right. Yeah.

F: So, you talk about this circumstance as your first real coming out to anyone. But you were also coming out to the roommates, right?

LB: Yes.

F: So there's a line you drew between like, close associations, right?

LB: Right, right.

F: Can you speak to that a little bit?

LB: Actually, the ironic--we got a lot of--

MB: Irony

LB: We got a lot of irony here. Actually, it was through the Collegiate Times that they would run an ad and they called it, "Women's space for lesbians and friends." And there was a number you called, and so it probably took me--back then it was the quarter system--I think it took me about a quarter to get the 12:00nerve up. My roommate at the time was very encouraging and supportive. She's like, "Lisa, you should just call." I think about that now, in terms of, I called a strange number, I left a message, I get a call back, and it ends up being Nancy Kelly who showed up at my dorm, right, to pick me up. I got in a car with a stranger, drove off campus which felt like into another town, which is just right out of town at someone's home for my first lesbian gathering. So yeah, so that's what's so kind of crazy of him being involved in the CT and Denim Day. There was a lot of controversy and people who were against it. Then, 13:00here I pop in the fall. It was funny, at the gathering, when I said my name, "Lisa Barroso," and I do believe it was Nancy Kelly who was like, "Are you related to Mark Barroso?" It was like, "That's my brother." They like all freaked out! Because he had been so openly against through the CT, and then here I am, his baby sister coming out as her first lesbian party. [Laughter] "Mark Barroso, Mark Barroso!" So yeah, that's kind of our connection. So, it's pretty interesting.

R: Women's space, did you say? So, that was the name of a group, like a lesbian group. It was different from the gay and straight alliance.

LB: Yes, yes.

R: Oh, cool.

LB: I don't think I really even--I didn't go to a Gay Straight Alliance meeting until much later. So no, this was a specific, called a women's space. They would 14:00get together on Fridays. I can't remember now if it was like every Friday or once a month or something. They also used it as a hotline for women who would call. I think you asked for Jane, or something. There was some--but it was a friendly voice on the end to talk to and help you connect.

F: Had you been out to anyone in high school?

LB: I learned the name to my feelings when I was in eleventh grade, because I had a big crush on a woman and finally got the nerve to say something to her. And she was the one, "Have you heard the word 'lesbian'?" And I'm like, "Mmm." My image was like the real diesel dyke, kind of like "Rrr," and that just didn't 15:00fit my image. So, I didn't think that was me. So yeah, she kind of helped me frame my feelings.

F: But then the women's collective was your first real--

LB: Yes.

F: Experience of sort of a community.

LB: Yes. Yes, very much so, very much so. Which was great, because as the family was adjusting, I was developing my own support and family connections that I needed. As they were figuring it out.

F: So, was the reaction of the rest of your family and your mother what Mark had feared?

LB: I didn't kill her.

[Laughter]

MB: Good.

LB: So, that was good.

MB: That was good.

[Laughter]

LB: That was good.

MB: What was Mike's reaction?

LB: Mike's reaction--he had just had his first daughter.

F: That's the older brother that went to Tech first?

LB: Yes. He came in--when did he come? Like [19]73? I think he was here [19]73--

MB: No, [19]72.

LB: [19]72? Somewhere in early [19]70s, he was here.

MB: Yeah, [19]72.

LB: So yeah, he had his first child, and--

MB: Oh, I know what--Keep going.

LB: You know, you remember now, don't you?

MB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.

LB: So, I was holding his daughter, my first niece, right? He was like, "I don't even know if I'm comfortable letting you hold my daughter." Like I'm a child molester or something? Like, really? Why would you think all of a sudden, because you know this about me--and he was like--

MB: Thought she might catch something.

LB: I guess, but then it was this thing, too, of like, "Don't think you're going 17:00to come to family gatherings, you're not allowed to bring anyone to functions." It was the same kind of thing my mother picked up on, me being a lesbian, really, in tenth grade.

MB: Before you knew.

LB: Yeah, in tenth grade. And she sat me down in tenth grade and said, "Are you a lesbian?" And I was like, "No."

MB: She prayed over you.

LB: No, she said, "Because if you are, you're going to have to move, change your name. You cannot live in Hampton." I mean, I'm in tenth grade. Where the fuck am I supposed to go? Right? So, she's laying out all these rules and then at the ends says, "Are you gay?" "No, I'm not." But that was the moment I knew my ass was going to college. And I had better do good, because I'm not staying here.

[Laughter]

LB: At that moment, it was like--

MB: That's the motivation.

LB: That's the motivation. That's the motivation for coming to college!

MB: Hey, she did her job.

[Laughter]

LB: And I never went back. And I never went back. She once asked me, she had the nerve to ask me, like why I never moved back home. I said, "Why would I? Why would I?"

MB: Well, as a family unit, I guess we all represented the worst people to come out to.

LB: [Laughter] But no one physically beat me.

MB: We didn't comport ourselves very well.

LB: Right.

MB: That's why I'm so nice to her now. For the last forty years, I've been trying to make up for it.

LB: That's true.

MB: I do a lot of home repairs.

[Laughter]

LB: Both of them.

MB: Trying to make up for how we treated her.

LB: Well, and the interesting thing I think, too, for me, was that I think it speaks volume to us in terms of family that for me, I couldn't imagine not having my family. That even though they were--

MB: That's true. You could have just divorced us.

LB: Hell, yeah.

MB: You had every reason to.

LB: Trust me, trust me. I contemplated, I contemplated.

MB: I understand it.

LB: Yeah, but--

MB: But at the time, I think, our parents--not me, I'll just speak for me--I would've fought you on that one, divorcing us. The parents maybe would've let you go.

LB: [Laughter] They would've. Yeah.

MB: But, keep in mind it's easy to use today's enlightenment--

LB: Sure.

MB: To judge people back then. At the time, it was all a very new thing. This 20:00idea hadn't permeated straight people that gay people could have loving, long-term relationships. For a straight person in the [19]70s, all we thought was that they just wanted to have sex with each other. It was all about sex, men and women.

LB: Or drag queens.

MB: Drag queens. Those were the images on TV.

LB: Sure.

MB: Was the most outrageous stuff.

LB: Right, sure.

MB: Gay people in the media were not represented as normal at all. They were represented as freaks, and showboating and--

LB: Right, which is why I had--

MB: Liberace.

LB: That's why I had such a hard time identifying me as lesbian because for me, what I saw was the diesel dyke lesbians on their motorcycles and chains and all this rough kind of stuff. I didn't own a pair of jeans until I came to Tech. I 21:00was the girl in skirts and heels. It didn't fit.

MB: And you smiled a lot.

LB: I smiled a lot. So I struggled with that, actually. I tried to cut my hair off and I bought jeans and boots, and wore flannel shirts. Like, "Yeah, I got this."

MB: You did.

LB: I went home--remember that? I literally cut my hair, and I went home and my mother looked at me. The first thing she said was, "Your long hair was the prettiest thing about you." "Gee, thanks? Okay, all right." She said something like--I'm the only girl, and the baby girl--"I should've just had another boy." 22:00I looked at her and I couldn't believe it. I must've felt empowered. I looked at her just as stern as I could, and I said, "It would've made my life a lot easier."

[Laughter]

LB: I did. I can't believe it came out of my mouth. I mean, I was empowered that day, wasn't I? I was in my butch mode, damn it. As butch as I could get.

[Laughter]

MB: The funny thing is--I don't know. I think if Mom was alive, I think she would laugh. She'd be defensive.

LB: Yeah.

MB: But . . . she would be apologetic.

LB: Yeah. I think so.

MB: As we all are.

LB: Right. I mean, we had several conversations. Our mother was very sick off and on, lots of close calls.

MB: That's why I also reacted the way I did, because our mom's health was very fragile.

LB: Yes. Yes.

MB: When you were coming out.

LB: Yeah, so her and I had opportunities that we thought were on her deathbed, literally. So, we talked.

MB: For like twenty years, she was on her deathbed.

LB: Kind of. But I remember one point in time, we talked and she just said that for her, like in her age, that she could never have thought to do something that would disappoint her family so much, that she saw my lesbianism as a disappointment. How could I do that to her--to the family? I just said, "You know what? I got to live my life. This is my life, not yours." Then I remember--it was so weird. We went from like this really intense moment, and then she just looked at me and she's like, "I can't imagine kissing another woman." I remember saying, "It's really nice. You should try it." [Laughter] I 24:00was like, "It's really nice." So, yeah, I think off and on, we had our moments of where we could talk.

MB: I think that--and just real quickly, in defense of Mom--

LB: Oh.

MB: I think that the pace of change in my mom's lifetime--

LB: Yes.

MB: Was more than a lot of people could have borne. I mean, she grew up in rural North Carolina, a racist, and very traditional Baptist girl.

LB: Yes.

MB: By the end of her life, she was running a center in the inner city of Hampton, the only white person in that whole building.

LB: Right.

MB: I think there were as many black people at her funeral as there was white 25:00people. Gay daughter.

LB: Yeah.

MB: I mean, we threw a lot at her.

LB: We did.

MB: I did, too.

LB: Yeah.

MB: I tried to disappoint her more--

LB: To cover me.

MB: To cover you.

[Laughter]

LB: Thank you. It's true. The only thing I could have done more than what you did was be gay. [Laughter]

MB: That's true. That's a good point. Never thought of that.

F: Rose to the challenge.

LB: I rose to the challenge, yes. Yeah.

[Break in interview]

F: So, you've been talking about Mark's reaction and his evolution, and your mother and your relationship with your mother. Did the rest of the family come around eventually? You mentioned--was it Mike, your other brother?

LB: Yes.

F: Did his reaction to your sexuality evolve?

LB: Oh, yes. Yes, very much so, very much so. I mean, at this point, both of my brothers have been very vocal in terms of recognizing through this time period 26:00that I didn't divorce the family, that I had to every right to walk away from them, but didn't. And have actually become a very active Auntie to their children to the point where, at least for his children, I'm almost as much of a mother if not more. To recognize that I still continue that role with his children and to imagine what potentially would have been missed, that he can talk to that of appreciation for me sticking it out and waiting for them to kind of meet me. And it has.

MB: It's true. Dad was the last holdout.

LB: I don't think he ever--I don't think he ever--

MB: Well, he had that dementia at the end.

LB: And he was Cuban--

MB: Cubans.

LB: A lot of Spaniard, that kind of--

MB: Don't like gay people.

LB: No. Even though he finally admitted to me that he had an elder sister who was forced to marry some old man, that she was--in Cuba--a professor and in psychology I think it was, even.

MB: Was that Faye?

LB: Yeah, that she, he figured, was a lesbian. And then admitted that one of his brother's sons was gay and they shipped him off to Spain.

MB: Yeah.

LB: And I thought, "Damn. What if he had been my father? I could have been in Spain."

MB: You could've been in Spain. I know, right?

[Laughter]

LB: I was like, "Damn! What happened to me? Where was my trip?"

MB: [Inaudible 27:58]

LB: "Damn!" That's what I said.

MB: You got shipped off to Virginia Tech.

LB: That's right. Yes, I got shipped to Virginia Tech.

MB: To the virgin vault.

LB: Yes, yes. Yeah.

MB: That's true. Quickly, I'll just say that I think out of all the siblings, Lisa proved herself to be the most loving one of all of us, and showed more . . . affection's not the right word I'm looking for. You looked after Mom and Dad a lot more than I think--well, I know than I did, and maybe Mike. But you were always the loving daughter, and after all the shit they put you through and we put you through.

LB: True.

MB: You got to respect that.

LB: Yep.

MB: You didn't give up on us.

[Laughter]

LB: Of course not. That's my family. That's my family.

MB: Yeah. And I think our parents also came from a generation that always thought it was a choice.

LB: Yes. Yes.

MB: And that they could deprogram you.

LB: Yes, or pray hard enough for me.

MB: Pray over you, yeah.

LB: Yeah. I even had the Methodist minister who had known me from being a young child. Growing up in the church, I was a very active youth leader in the church, did the Billy Graham Crusades. It was interesting that I felt the need to talk to him about being gay. I was told I would have to choose between God and being gay, that the two couldn't coexist. This came from the preacher who had known me all that time. At the time, I think I had just turned eighteen. I waited till I 30:00turned eighteen before I started actively pursuing being a lesbian. So yeah, where religion had been such a big part of me, I never thought . . . I never thought there would be a conflict.

F: So, did you take that to heart? Did you believe what he said, that you had to make that choice?

LB: Yes, yes. I did. Yes, I did.

F: And you made that choice, or--

LB: I felt compelled that I was representing the nature of who I was, and I felt that I was created in this image. I used to tell people that, "If I'm to be judged, that being gay is a sin, that I hope I'm judged as equally as anyone else who also has sins, supposedly sins or whatever.

F: So, it sounds like you didn't so much make the choice as accept the sin. Is that what you're saying?

LB: Maybe, maybe. Hadn't thought about it that way.

F: Because you continued to think of yourself as Methodist and as lesbian, right?

LB: Yes. Yeah, yeah. It was interesting. Losing the family dynamic, losing that Christian family was quite a bit. Really, the only group that really stuck with me was the women I met at women's space. They were my community. So, they really did step up.

F: They originally engaged you as the sister of--

LB: Mark Barroso.

F: Mark Barroso.

LB: Yeah. [Laughter] Yes.

F: So did that actually require any, like, getting over or was it just an observation?

LB: I think they thought it was just hilarious that Mark Barroso would have a lesbian sister, and I heard stories of him and the activism, in the CT.

MB: What stories?

LB: I guess stuff you must have written. I don't know. But that's what I remember, was that you had made it known. Kind of like, for Denim Day. Like, there were some of the guys wore skirts in protest, or they wore--

MB: Or in support.

LB: Wearing a skirt on Denim Day? Hell no. You're supposed to wear your denim. Don't, no. What. [Laughter]

MB: I'm trying to rewrite history here.

LB: I see that.

MB: What! Work with me.

LB: No, not this one.

[Laughter]

LB: I'll give you a lot, but not this one. Yeah, so I learned a lot about my 33:00brother, from them. So yeah.

F: So Mark, what did you write? You were at Tech for Denim Day. Lisa came just after, in the fall after.

LB: Just after.

F: But it was still a thing people were talking about in the women's space, the GSA, the campus. So how did get that reputation that Lisa encountered?

MB: Well, Tim Chase actually wrote--there was a pro and con editorial on Denim Day, which I want to emphasize. It was not pro or con gay rights, it was about the validity of the protest or the action.

LB: The supporters [33:54].

MB: The action. I may have written something. I was just churning out copy, so I 34:00don't know specifically what I wrote. Over the years, though, there was . . . it was a time--it was a lot of . . . we all wanted to be Hunter S. Thompson rolled into John Belushi rolled into Carl Bernstein. So, it was a real schizophrenic persona I had.

LB: Yeah.

MB: I might be writing an investigative piece one week, and the next week I'm writing some off-color humor. That's probably--the off-color humor is probably what got me in trouble.

LB: Probably.

MB: With your friends.

LB: I can see that.

MB: Yeah.

LB: I can see you doing that.

MB: But, I know in our editorial meetings--so we would all discuss the position the paper was going to take, and it was a split. I agreed with Tim. I thought Denim Day was a dumb idea because to me it was like saying, "If you support gay 35:00rights, wear shoes." Why don't you do something--pink shirt or something that identified you as a supporter of gay rights. So it was more of a technical objection I had--

LB: Of picking denim jeans.

MB: Yeah.

LB: That's your normal--

MB: Yeah. God damn it, that's mine. You can't take my clothes.

[Laughter]

R: Oh, I get it now. I get it now. All right.

LB: Like the pink ribbon for breast cancer kind of thing.

MB: Yeah.

LB: Don't link those two together.

MB: But see, I didn't get it, that the point was to start a dialogue, and I think that's--if I'm understanding correctly--the point was to start a discussion between supporters and maybe non-supporters, just to get people 36:00talking about these invisible people among us.

LB: Sure.

MB: Right?

LB: Right.

MB: Which is a good thing. I didn't understand that at the time. But that was the point. I thought the point was to make a show. So, I was wrong. But Sherry Wood, who was the editor, wrote the pro-Denim Day editorial, and I think she's going to be here.

F: I think so.

MB: I think you all are going to interview her on Skype or something.

F: I think I saw that.

MB: She was ahead of her time.

LB: Mm-hm, except for not keeping my request. Just saying.

F: Okay, got it, connecting the dots.

LB: Just saying. Just saying.

MB: Let her know. So anyway, that was my take on Denim Day. Does that make sense?

F: Yeah, so, was it Sherry's argument that helped to evolve your understanding of what they were attempting to do, or is it something you came upon later, after the fact?

MB: Well, I'm a slow learner. You have to plant an idea in my head, and it has to be fertilized and watered before it spreads. So I think Denim Day and Sherry's article made me begin thinking about it more. Of course, having a gay sister kind of made me think about it more.

LB: Now, I think I understand why she told you, because she knew how your opposition, and from your perspective--so she probably did out me just because it would help you, maybe. You know what I'm saying?

MB: Oh.

LB: Right?

MB: Okay.

LB: Like, "Hey Mark! You're such a jerk about queers. Guess what? Your sister's 38:00queer, Mark Barroso!"

[Laughter]

MB: I was not a jerk about queers. I was really a "live and let live" guy. I just didn't understand gay--

LB: No, but you have a way of speaking with gruff . . . "rrr"

MB: Rrr.

LB: Rrr. Yeah.

MB: What am I, Mr. McGruff or something?

LB: Maybe. But I can see now with Sherry having the knowledge.

MB: You're probably right. She probably wanted to score points in a debate.

LB: Yeah. She was [inaudible 38:44] probably. She used me. Now, I connect that dot.

MB: That's funny.

LB: That is funny. Maybe we should have Sherry. Maybe we need to have a three-way. We need to have a three-way. [Laughter]

MB: Well, you'll have a chance, she's coming.

LB: Oh, yeah. Oh, I'll sit down with her. So, yeah.

MB: I think a lot of things are in evolution. I don't think many people--well, I'll just speak for myself. It's rare that I have, like, a conversion overnight and change my mind about something. It takes a while. I'm stubborn. Excuse me . . . I like to think I'm right.

LB: Yes, yes.

MB: But, I keep an open mind.

LB: Yes, you do.

MB: I'll let stuff sink in.

LB: You will entertain another opinion.

MB: Yeah.

LB: You will.

MB: I did. I'm glad that it--I was actually surprised when Nancy contacted--she contacted Sherry. I think Sherry dragged me into this.

LB: I dragged you in.

MB: You dragged me in.

LB: Sorry, it's me.

MB: Oh, it's payback.

LB: I'm owning it. I'm owning it.

MB: All right, then you dragged me in. I was surprised that Denim Day was still being celebrated and it's a thing. I was glad to hear it.

LB: Yeah. Nancy contacted--well, Nancy actually facilitated a reunion we've already had with my first lesbian roommates. It's been like forty years since we've all been together. At my home a couple months ago, actually, we all gathered for a get-together and it was so much fun. So much fun.

MB: Huh. I didn't know that. Did you tell me that?

LB: I think I did. So yeah, so when she was talking about what she was trying to do with Denim Day, so then I started talking about with Mark, and, "ohh!"

MB: Ohh!

LB: Ohh!

MB: Why do you have to bring him into it?

LB: Ohh! Once again, lesbians going, "Your brother, Mark Barroso!"

MB: What a Neanderthal.

LB: So, yeah. That was me.

MB: Well, win some, lose some. I lost that one.

LB: But we gained each other.

[Laughter]

MB: Man. Cut.

LB: That's it.

MB: Cut that one.

LB: Oh, no. I thought that would be the ending.

MB: All right. So where do we go from here?

F: Well, so, that pro-con piece in the CT, was that prior to, in anticipation of Denim Day, or was that following?

MB: It was prior, because they announced that it was going to happen, such-and-such date, "If you support gay rights, wear denim," was my understanding. So we wrote--the CT published the--journalists love controversy, 42:00so we probably stirred it up, too. Sherry felt strongly about it, and I think the men were like, "What's all this about?"

LB: Oh, gotcha.

MB: So, it's like, why not put this on the pages of the newspaper, the debate we're having amongst ourselves?

F: Was it Sherry and the men? Is that the dynamic? Or were there other female voices--

MB: Pretty much.

F: Yeah, okay.

MB: Sherry was the only one--no. Julie Goberto. I don't know if Julie was on the editorial staff at that point. The editorial department, which is just the people that form the opinion of the newspaper--the newspaper says, "This is what we stand for"--there was three of us. I should've brought this picture. There's 43:00a picture of three of us, Tim Chase, me, and Sherry. Sherry was the editor, I was the managing editor, and Tim was the editorial page editor. So . . . that's often how we decided what the opinion of the paper was going to be, because there would always be two. You had to have a majority to win the argument.

R: So, is this the first time that sort of a pro-con piece was put out?

MB: . . . Quite possibly, because we rarely disagreed on things. I think it was. I'm going to say yes, it was the first time that we published the competing ideas of the newspaper's staff . . . I think we all acknowledged the merits of 44:00each other's argument. So, yeah . . .

F: So then what did you--were you going to say something?

R: Oh, I'm curious what the response of the folks that you knew in women's space was. Because I know you're kind of getting at the reputation that you had of Mark around the group, but what their response was to the editorial?

LB: I don't have a response.

F: You wouldn't have been there yet. Yeah.

MB: She came after.

R: Yeah.

MB: So that was in the spring, she came in the fall.

LB: Yeah.

R: That makes sense.

LB: So it wasn't really--I didn't know any specifics, just that they had linked him with the opposing view, and just that, how interesting that I pop up, his sister.

R: Gotcha.

LB: So, that's really all I know about it, that detail.

R: Yeah.

F: How aware of what Mark was into at Virginia Tech were you before you came here?

LB: Oh, yeah. I knew he was really involved in the paper, I knew some different stories that he was working on, the football coach. There was all kinds of different angles. This was before staff was even integrated into the governance system. That happened--I was part of that, early on.

MB: I'm mostly proud of what we did at the paper. We did a lot of resistance to the . . .

LB: Establishment.

MB: The establishment.

LB: Kind of.

MB: We exposed the--I'll talk about that. I want to talk about that later.

F: Okay. So then, on Denim Day, though, you've written that you've talked about it, you've had this debate internally, you put it out in the pages of the CT, and then what did you do and what did you observe?

MB: And then there were letters to the editor, we published those.

F: But you didn't wear denim or you did wear denim?

MB: . . . Someone says I wore the skirt.

LB: I thought you did.

MB: I could have. My memory's not that great.

LB: I thought you did.

MB: Okay. I'll go with that. I probably wore a skirt--your skirt. No, you weren't here. Where would I have gotten a skirt?

LB: I'm sure you could've. Wasn't there a Goodwill back then?

MB: Back in the day, yeah.

LB: Back in the day, there was a Goodwill.

F: That was the off-color humor you referenced earlier, or what was the--I mean, I guess your memory's unclear, but what was the point of the skirt? Protest or joke or--

MB: I think . . . I think it meant different things to different people. I think some people did it in support of gay rights, and some people just made fun of the protest that way.

LB: I can't imagine wearing a skirt would be supportive because you're doing the opposite of how to show your support. So I would think that they would just be people making light of, as a joke. Like, "I'm so anti, I'm going to wear a skirt. Yeah.

MB: Yeah, I don't--you said I wore a skirt, but I don't--

LB: I thought that's--

MB: Someone--I don't know. I think I had probably--my thing was, after I wrote an editorial, I just moved onto the next thing. It wasn't a big deal to me--

LB: Right.

MB: A straight person.

LB: Sure.

MB: For me it was like, again, my objection was, "Let me tell you to do a protest."

LB: [Laughter]

MB: Because I was one of the founding members of the Frisbee Club.

F: Oh, yeah?

MB: And we organized a protest of the Iranian hostages when Iran took the American hostages.

F: Sure.

MB: And we organized a protest to support the hostages on the Drillfield, and we sold hotdogs at the protest to raise money for the Frisbee Club. So, it was a 49:00two-for-one thing. Fundraiser and protest. But back in the [19]70s, there were a lot of protests.

LB: That's true, that's true.

MB: Yeah, we had a lot angry mobs on the Drillfield.

LB: Now, they're--

MB: Yeah. So, five-minute signal.

F: Yep . . . So, then after the fact, we've heard about the letters you're about start the--but we haven't spoken to anyone at the CT yet. So, you got a lot of letters?

MB: Yeah, we got a lot of letters. Again, 1979, I know if you're from a big city like New York or Boston, you're two years ahead of consciousness of Southwest 50:00Virginia, at least. So, it was the first time people, I think, had to think about it. Like our parents, we inherited some preconceptions that it was a choice, that it was a sin.

LB: Right.

MB: I never thought it. I was not a religious person so I didn't fall into the sin trap. So, to me it was like, the last gasp of this old mentality when it came to understanding sexuality. In the [19]80s with the HIV epidemic, I think that's when I know I started to see the humanity of gay people, because some of my friends who were dying that I didn't know were gay, it was like--

LB: Right.

MB: So . . . we all evolve.

LB: We do, we do, we do.

MB: Stop.

[Laughter]

LB: I am the lover in the family.

MB: It's true. The nurturer.

LB: I am, I am.

MB: Keep it up, they're going to run out of time. Let's hope.

LB: Let's hope.

F: You're going to run out the clock.

[Break in interview]

MB: I'm probably the only one that's going to say, "I thought it was a dumb idea." I'm that guy.

[Laughter]

LB: Yes, yes, yes. That's the Mark Barroso! Exactly! You can imagine the--yeah.

R: I think it's interesting, so like you were saying with the Collegiate Times, that we don't have any interviews from that. But in recording the history of Denim Day, the CT definitely plays a prominent role, and how that conversation was going on.

LB: Oh, yeah.

R: Anything about your experience, even though it was after Denim Day--so, I know it's not like the typical interview, it's still really cool to hear about, what it was like to be queer on campus in the 1980s. Yeah, so anything you all want to say.

F: I am curious more with you, Lisa, that you talked about the women's collective but you haven't talked about the GSA. There's a sort of somewhat interesting development in the story that the campus reaction, and especially the administrative level after the fact was such that Denim Day was explicitly forbidden the following year. I'm wondering if you had any participation in GSA 53:00or in attempts to possibly repeat--I mean, there was certainly an awareness week, it just took a different form the following year and you were here now for that. So if you could, I guess, speak to the broader context of the community and whether or not you had association with GSA and-or the educational or political motivations of some of that group's activities.

LB: I guess for me, I didn't--it was so much happening I left--like I said, I was seventeen years old when I came to Tech. In that first year, I came out, I laughed that I discovered women, alcohol, and marijuana all at the same time. 54:00So, that was like a lot. That was a lot. School was somewhere in that list, but not very well. So no, it wasn't really--I didn't get motivated into the political part of it until maybe my--I also took a year out because I was not attentive to school because there were more important things to do.

F: But you stayed in town.

LB: I stayed in town, yeah. Yeah. But when I came back, I became real active. I think you've heard also that I became one of the representatives that would show up for Human Sexuality class in McBryde 100. I remember sitting on the edge of the stage, me and Steve Noll, another old-timer who's still around. So yeah, we were like the guest homosexuals, pretty much. This is the [19]80s, right?

MB: Over here, Exhibit A! Ladies and gentlemen, in the McBryde auditorium we have a lesbian over here!

[Laughter]

LB: Yes, I would do this, "I'm Lisa the lesbian." Right here, this is it. Lisa the lesbian, right here. Yeah.

MB: Made your mother proud.

LB: I did. I thought so. Especially to open up yourself to questions and things. My reputation actually got to Hollins College. They actually hired me to come and work with the resident advisors about how they should handle having lesbians on their floors and should they be different. I always felt it interesting that heterosexuals felt so threatened by homosexuals in terms of sexual pursuit. That I would get these, "Well, what about when they're in the shower and I'm in the 56:00shower, and uhh." I remember, especially at Hollins, because they were the uppity girls. I remember saying to them--can I use foul language?

F: Sure.

LB: I was like, "Do you want to fuck every guy you pass on the sidewalks? Do you have no discretion? Is there not something else that compels you? That's just being human. Don't consider yourself that good that every lesbian wants you. Don't think you're that good."

[Laughter]

LB: I mean, come on. It's not like that, right? Don't you have discretion, who you ask to date? And if someone does ask, you can be polite just like you would if some guy came up and there's no way you would ever go out with him. It's human interaction, it's human interaction. Let's just take it to that level. So 57:00that was kind of my message at the time was, that was my line: "Do you feel compelled to screw everything that walks by? No. Well, neither do we, I guess, most of us." That's not a homosexual tendency. So, just trying to dispel. I think I became an open person that they could ask all those weird questions and have a response.

F: So the visiting at Hollins and other places, it came out of the visiting classes.

LB: Yes. Yes.

F: And how was the experience in the classroom? Do you feel like you were accomplishing what you intended?

LB: I did, I did.

F: Which was . . .

LB: I think I was trying to put a face of normalcy, because at the time what 58:00made the press, what made the news were the flamboyant drag queens or the motorcycle mamas. That's what made the press or the nightly news, and I just wanted to be just that regular person. I'm just a regular person. My love, my intimate love I share is with someone of the same gender, but--so, that's what I felt like I was trying to do, was--you know what? Yeah. We all eat cereal or whatever, I don't know. We all put on our shoes. That's kind of the same thing. So, that's how I felt I made change.

MB: Don't tap, don't handle that. That makes noise. Sorry.

LB: Sorry. Cut that part out.

[Laughter]

F: That's the best part.

MB: The sound man had to jump in there.

R: It's kind of interesting that you say that sitting on the panels--which actually, I sat in on one of those panels, too; they do still run--led to you visiting Hollins to speak to resident advisors. Did you do any other quote-unquote advocacy work or anything of the sort while you were at school or afterwards?

LB: Yes, in terms of just being involved with the gay student group. It was interesting, too, of also bridging faculty and staff because there was kind of like this student group--and so it was a nice kind of bridging. Also, there was a separation of women and men, like Women's space. The men would meet, and the gay women would meet. The Gay Student Alliance became a meeting of both. So, it 60:00was really nice to have that common space together, was through the student group because you had your separate factions.

F: Did you feel the separate was also helpful? The coming together, you said, was beneficial, but was also having the separate spaces beneficial?

LB: Oh yes, very much so, very much so. Yeah. Just sheer nature of--at that point, I think, just women relating to each other and how men relate to each other. In your free, party time, it was good to have your own space. I think that was--at least for the women, to have their own space.

R: Were there any tensions that resulted from sort of these two groups coming together--so, you said the Gay Student Alliance was the joining of sort of this 61:00group of queer men and of queer women.

LB: Right.

R: Yeah. Was that mostly--it could've been just really easy and simple, but what were your thoughts on that?

LB: Well . . . hm.

R: You don't have to speak to it if you don't want to.

LB: No, it's just a matter of--it's kind of like looking back in your head--I'm playing with the cord again--looking back in your head . . . I think that it was good for me, just because the men also gave their perspective to the situation. We all experience it differently, so from that. I'm always interested in other 62:00people and how they're experiencing something.

R: For sure.

F: Have you been in touch much with friends from that time? Have you remained in touch? I mean, I know you remained in town.

LB: Well, some of us who are still around town will bump into each other. How can you not?

F: Yeah.

LB: Also, by staying afterwards not only as a student, but I also became involved as a staff member here, and was part of--I guess my organization skills kicked in again--was part of organizing the staff to be part of the governance system. So, I was involved in doing that. I was actually first staff member to sit on university council, and that was the year the vote came up for inclusion 63:00of sexual orientation as part of Virginia Tech's inclusion policy.

F: What year?

LB: Gosh, I know, right? I couldn't tell you. I'd have to look that up.

F: But you're talking about the creation of the staff senate?

LB: Yes.

F: Oh, okay.

LB: Yes, and then from there, the staff senate, then we could send people to university council, which is where all the--that's where the power, that's where the decisions are made--to bring that staff voice to the council. So yeah, so that was me. To listen as the discussions that came up from that were interesting, of hearing from these old professors or the administrators, addressing the concern--hearing again the concern of, "Parents aren't going to 64:00want to send their children school if we say we accept homosexuals. What about in the military? What about the in ROTC?" And the guy who ran the ROTC, "Well, in the military--" To be witness to that was interesting. So yeah, that was wild being part of that.

MB: You've been educating people your whole life.

LB: Kinda.

MB: I gave you good training.

LB: Yes, you did.

MB: Of what you would experience at a workplace at Virginia Tech.

LB: [Laughter] That's true. My family experience led me to work with administrators at Virginia Tech.

MB: Not trying to take credit or anything.

LB: True, thank you. But yeah, that was a real amazing moment to be part of that 65:00as well.

F: Yeah.

LB: From being a gay person on campus.

F: So what was your job? I guess, can you briefly connect the dots for me from graduating from Tech and then what you've done in town since? Then, are you still a staff member involved in governance?

LB: No. I think that the voting part--I'm trying just to pick my time points here--

F: Yeah.

LB: I believe the voting would have happened maybe in [19]89, [19]90, maybe around in then?

F: For the inclusion.

LB: For the inclusion, if you seek that out.

F: And creation of staff senate precedes that by maybe like a year?

LB: Yeah. Yeah. I know I was accused of being a union rebel, and my boss at the 66:00time--I'm a research scientist--and my boss at the time had some older faculty member come to him specifically and said that I was trying to create a union amongst the staff, and that he needed to control me. Yeah. Which my boss is a rebel himself, so he was like, "Just keep it quiet. Just try to keep it quiet." I was like, "Okay, I will."

MB: Keep what quiet?

LB: Organizing staff to have representation at the university.

MB: Oh. How do you keep that quiet?

LB: Exactly. So, yeah. So, my background is, I'm more of a molecular biologist. So, in the [19]80s as DNA was being worked with and all the new technology of sequencing and things like that. That's, that's my passion. I work in 67:00identifying intestinal bacteria and parasites-- organisms that cause disease, and my current position, since 2000, has been with a company called Tech Lab. And I've been with, we started the company out of Tech. Tracy Wilkins and David Lirely were part of the anaerobe lab back in the [19]80s. They got shoved into biochemistry and became Fralin biotechnology-- when that came, Tracy was the first director for that and I was his lab manager at Fralin. So now, as they were retiring in 2000, working their way out, I went to the company and have been there since 2000. So yeah, so that's my role. So yeah, so I've stayed in 68:00the community. I have folks who've been here the whole-- that I met back in the [19]80s as a young kid. We're still good friends. So there's some of us who've still been here.

F: Yeah.

LB: Yeah. So I do, I've waned in waves of being involved and taking-- just kind of stepping back for a little bit. So yeah.

R: It's really kind of amazing to hear that you've been here and sort of how embedded in the community you are. What led you to want to stay in Blacksburg, I guess permanently?

LB: Probably because it did become quite the comfort nest, you know, that especially within Blacksburg, you know, it's very easy to-- we become real 69:00complacent in Blacksburg, that you can be out and gay and you don't have to worry. But, you can also crossover into Christiansburg and be met with billboards. I remember when there was a billboard that went up in support of gay-- it was like a gay awareness billboard that went up and created all kinds of negativity and you realize that, you know that boundary is real evident and so I think I just found a community and my safety net. And, not only for socially but also academically, intellectually I could pursue my passion, which was, you know, how bacteria do what they do and cells and I continue to be wowed 70:00and amazed at what bacteria can do. And so, I kinda had it all.

R: Yeah.

LB: Why go? Why leave?

F: So we talked about your family evolving toward acceptance and now we're talking about the community. Have you found that what you observed in Blacksburg and the surrounding area-- in the nation-- what's changed since the late 1970s, early 1980s to be kind of hopeful or what's your sense on just how far it has come since then?

LB: I'm out of touch with what the students today are feeling. By the time I interact with students, you know, they're-- they've already graduated and I'm getting them adjusted to their first job in a real lab. So, I'm not sure how their experience is out in public and in the world-- but it does seem to me like it's definitely more open and accepting. But then, when something happens its ugly, ugly. You know, it seems like it's a either or. That's just kind of my personal take on it.

F: Yeah.

LB: You know, I mean it's wrapped up now in, you know now we have active shooter drills and you know that kind of-- the scope of and level of violence is so much 72:00more for anything.

MB: But you don't have to--

LB: I don't experience that.

MB: You don't have hide your sexuality anymore?

LB: No, no. And actually, at work I'm very open professionally because I feel it's an opportunity for young people who may not have known someone who was gay and so I come-- I'm a mentor at work. I teach and train young scientists and at the same time I share with them my world and being a lesbian. I lost my partner six years ago to brain cancer and was very open about that and the loss and pain that's very real. The-- my eighty-five year old neighbor across the street lost 73:00her husband two years ago. And talk about a sign of the times, she's in her eighties and when I come to her, when [NAME UNCLEAR] died, and she just looked at me and said "you know what this feels like"-- that my, she equated her loss of her husband of you know, sixty years to the loss that I share, that I had. You know, to me that gave me a level of acceptance I had never experienced that she equated-- like we bonded over being widowers and my pain was as much as hers.

F: Yeah, just normal.

LB: Yeah, so that's my community, that's what I've created. Whether it's not, maybe not everyone else's reality, but I've created mine to be this way. Wow. 74:00Where did all that come from? Wow.

F: That's great and maybe a great place to stop, at least for a break and maybe reconfigure. Are we--

R: Thank you for sharing.

LB: Thank you for asking. Thank you for asking. I think we're kinda done.

MB: Well at the end, I'd like five minutes by myself.

LB: Yes, please.

MB: If that's alright.

LB: Yeah.

MB: If that's alright?

F: Yeah, are you guys like--

MB: I want to take advantage of this moment.

LB: That'd be great. I'll step out.

[Break in interview]

MB: So, I'm not going to be able to get through this without getting emotional. But, when I knew I was coming here--

F: That's understandable. Yeah.

MB: I, there's one story I wanted to tell, that gets on the record somewhere. 75:00Just give me a minute.

F: Take your time.

MB: I don't know, this is probably a dumb idea. So I mentioned that being at Collegiate Times was a real learning experience. I think we did a lot of good. We did a lot of stupid things that stupid teenagers do. It was alright out there, we kinda, you know put ourselves out there. But one of the things I 76:00learned at Virginia Tech is how large institutions can crush you. And I had three, happened, I had three times. The first one was understandable. We did a story about, there was a burglar ring at Virginia Tech that used the steam tunnels to access buildings and they were committing all these burglaries and then entered into-- they got into Burruss Hall, changed grades, they popped up inside of the, what is it called, the New Virginians or something, the choral group-- stole a bunch of musical instruments, a lot of mischief, some theft and 77:00the kids came to us cause the University was squeezing them, you know. And they were worried they were gonna go to jail and so to find out if they were bullshitting us or not we repeated what they told us. So we went into the steam tunnels to see if we could pop up in the buildings and we did. So, we ran their story and it was a big deal at the time, you know, banner headlines and we embarrassed the University-- the lack of security. So when the Roanoke Times came to do the story, they told the kids "if you tell the Roanoke Times that you just made it all up, we won't press charges and just suspend you from school." And so, that's what they did. So, they told the Roanoke Times "oh, we just made 78:00all this shit up for the CT, didn't happen." So, we looked bad. That was the first one. Second one they gutted the journalism curriculum and we called them out-- and we used the newspaper to blast the University for gutting the curriculum. A journalism professor, they had this big meeting-- ended up choking me in public, by the neck. He was an old guy, I think he just lost his mind. He says he lost his balance and used my neck to right himself. So, a lot of people believed that. But anyway. So, he was a guy who taught us to speak truth to 79:00power, except when the tables were turned, he attacks us. The last one was the most serious one. I got a call. Gonna try and start over. Where did my sister go? I got a call from a girl who said that her roommate had been raped by the football team and it was being covered up by the University. She said it was "four members of the football team, she gave us the names and the University was 80:00sweeping it under the rug and she wanted us to do something about it." I said "well, we're not gonna write anything without her permission because, you know wouldn't wanna embarrass anybody or re-victimize anybody." I mean, she had to give us the okay. And she says well, "she left school, she went back home to Georgia". So, me and another editor got in my car and we drove down to Georgia to see if she wanted to talk. And, she didn't, but her brother, who was also on the football team met us at a convenience store and said "get the fuck out of 81:00town or we're gonna beat you up", but whatever, blah blah blah. I said, well you know, I'm here for your sister. "Well she doesn't wanna talk to you." And it was a prominent family because the name of the town was their last name. I'm gonna make one up. Say your name is Jones and we're in Jonesville, you know. That's how prominent this family was. So, she felt she was bringing shame to the family and didn't wanna cause a stink. Okay fine. But it really burned my ass that nothing was happening to these guys and so we gave them one last chance. We went to the athletic director, Bill Dooley. William Lavery, the president of Virginia 82:00Tech also knew what we were up to. So we came back and went to Bill Dooley's office and you know, he denied that it ever happened and got nose to nose with me saying "boy if I tell ya something's not true, it's not true." I was just this quivering little you know 20 year old or whatever and I was "Well they teach us in journalism school to check out everybody's story." You know, I'm like "uhhh." You know, but I'm still haunted by it because I think that girl wanted us to get her justice. We never got her justice Those four guys, they lost their scholarships, that's all that happened to them. They got-- they raped 83:00that girl and laughed about it and I don't feel like I ever-- I didn't do my job right and so, I just wanted to take this opportunity for someone at Virginia Tech to know that story. At the time, campus security was there to protect the reputation of the University, they weren't there to bring justice. I mean that was told to me by the head of security. They told us that there had not been a sexual assault in the history of Virginia Tech. 1979, no one in the history of Virginia Tech had ever been assaulted? William Lavery, the president said the 84:00same thing to us. And, so what happens when you cover this shit up? 1994, same thing happens to that girl who, she brought a lawsuit, I forget her name, [inaccurate detail cut at interviewee request], raped by the football team. Not the football team, I'm sorry let me rephrase that. Raped by a bunch of guys from the football team at a party. Same thing. And it's because the University did nothing in [19]79, there were no consequences. When there are no consequences, things like that repeat itself. So I reached out to that girl's attorney. I tried to tell this story to her, cause that went all the way to the Supreme Court, that case, because she sued the University. I think, I think she lost at 85:00the Supreme Court. But, anyway, this is not what you bargained for, but I wanted someone to hear that story.

F: Can I ask you a few questions?

MB: Yeah.

F: So, in [19]79, how did the University maintain the fiction of no wrongdoing and pull the suspensions. What were the, what was their justification that they gave for, I'm sorry pulled the scholarships-- what was the justification they gave for doing that without admitting that what happened had happened.

MB: Well, they didn't have to explain anything. The sports writers just, the sports writers are there to cheer on the team, I mean sports writers back then 86:00were in the features department and I follow-- because I knew their names. I knew that they were, they had their scholarships pulled. They weren't on the team the next year and so you know there are 50 some guys on the team, four drop off, no one really-- doesn't draw attention to it.

F: I see. Right, so it never got to a place where they had to make a justification because it was never under discussion in any public arena is what you're saying.

MB: Yeah. I feel like I have to remind people too, back then, newspapers were the only outlet for information, or source of information. That was what was cool and empowering about the Collegiate Times. I mean, we pretty much dictated 87:00what was known in the Virginia Tech universe. There's no Internet, no Facebook, the radio station just read news off the AP wire. Roanoke Times didn't really cover us and so people really looked to us and we tried to do our best to inform them of stuff.

F: Yeah, it sounds like you really took the role seriously, took the responsibility seriously, and you described, I mean these are powerful stories, especially the last one, you describe them as I think soul crushing-- is that what you said, spirit crushing, right?

MB: Yeah.

F: So, but I'm curious and it's obviously stayed with you, what has the affect been on the way you've sort of conducted yourself along your professional arch. 88:00You still work in media in some capacity, right?

MB: Well, I went on to be an investigative producer for a television station in Tampa. It didn't, it didn't crush my spirit, I just learned an important lesson, that you don't always win and powerful institutions, even the ones you like, I liked Virginia Tech, but when their back's against the wall, they will protect their own interests. And so, that was the lesson that I carried with me the rest of my life that even well-meaning organizations will continue to protect themselves rather than do the right thing. And so, I think it just made me 89:00angrier and more determined to do my little bit, to bring justice to stories. I won three Emmy awards for investigative reporting. I went on to produce for Dan Rather and MSNBC, Today Show, now I just focus on the technical part because the news-business changed, it's more entertainment driven now and less about telling the truth. And so, I changed to documentary films.

F: So how did, so how does that feel then? I mean, the observation that news has changed and is more about entertainment, reading that against what it, I see 90:00clearly as you're feeling that the importance of a free press in democratic society derived from this fact that even the most well-meaning organizations will protect themselves and will prefer the shadows to the light, that see that it is important for the press to be that light-- is your move to documentary filmmaking a sort of acknowledgement that that medium needs to take up that mantle because of what's happening to news?

MB: Most definitely. I've worked on some very good documentaries in different capacities and I still look to documentary films for the bigger deeper truths. I'm still a news-hound, but I read and listen to NPR and I read-- I don't watch 91:00television news anymore, but--

F: Yeah.

MB: But, I think it's even more needed now, I mean it's getting kinda dark out there when the president of the United States calls the news media the enemy of the people.

F: Yeah.

MB: We're in a dangerous times, you can't exaggerate how dangerous these times we live in are when in terms of democracy and truth telling. So, I don't know what's gonna happen.

F: Well, the information landscape and the internet is certainly largely to blame for the shift you're describing, but do you see any hope there as well?

MB: You know, it's all a real mixed bag. I -- because the sustainability of what we're in now, it's not sustainable. I'm the beneficiary of a lot of-- there's a 92:00lot of money thrown at content producers right now, we're kinda in a golden age of documentary films, feature films, the amount of information that's available, it's the golden times. But, that can't last because there's too many people losing money on it. So, I don't know how this is gonna all play out, you know. You can get a documentary film now on almost any topics, but I still prefer that it comes from trusted sources, people who are trained in journalism practices and ethics, not just telling your truth. I'm one of those people that think 93:00truth is also outside of you and you can tell someone else's truth, not just your own and so I hope we stick with that. I can talk about this stuff for hours, but.

F: Yeah, I know you said five minutes, I don't wanna--

MB: Well, I--

F: I don't wanna stretch it too much for too long.

MB: Well, I mean I can, I'll talk as much as you want, but I just knew that I, that that story that I wanted to get out was gonna take me five minutes.

F: Well, thanks so much.

MB: Sir. Thank you. I feel like a burden's been lifted.

F: Great.

MB: I hope she's doing alright.

F: You've had no follow-up?

MB: She made it clear she didn't want to talk to us.

F: Yeah.

MB: I believed her brother, I mean, who knows. But I wasn't gonna knock on her door either.

F: Sure.

MB: Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you. You guys are doing good stuff here.

F: Thank You.