Oral History with Sueann Brown, March 4, 2019 (Ms2019-001)

Ms2019-001

Interviewee: Sueann Brown

Interviewer: Eliza Goode

Date of Interview: March 4, 2019

Brown: My name is Sueann Brown and I was born in Manhasset, New York in August of 1958.

Goode: And where were you living when you decided to attend Virginia Tech?

B: I was living in northern Virginia at the time. I mostly grew up in Maryland, but we had moved to northern Virginia during high school. Which was convenient, actually because I knew I wanted to go to architecture school and Virginia Tech had a really highly rated architecture program. So, it was the only school I even applied to.

G: I only applied to one school. too. During which years did you live in Blacksburg or attend Virginia Tech?

B: I was there from 1976 to 1982. [cut] I was at Virginia Tech from 1976 to 1982. I did always know that I was interested in architecture and not so much in 1:00designing new buildings, it was always historic preservation is was what I was interested in. But I knew that Virginia Tech had a really good program and that's why I chose Virginia Tech and now I'm playing with my cat. [laughter]

G: So you studied historic architecture at Virginia Tech?

B: I studied architecture at Virginia Tech.

G: Did you end up using that later in life?

B: As a matter of fact, I did. I am now a historical architect. I work for the National Park Service in Pacific west region.

[cut]

G: You were growing up in Maryland and northern Virginia, it was the [19]60s and [19]70s. Did you have any kind of like dawning sense of who you were then or...

B: It was pretty gradual. I definitely-- by the time I was in high school I had a crush on my best friend in high school, but it didn't scare me necessarily. I was raised in a family that was pretty open minded and it didn't seem like that would be a horrible thing. But I also was not identifying myself that way yet. I just thought the closeness of that friendship was what was causing me to have these feelings at some point I'd feel that with some guy, and everything would be fab.

G: And you dated boys when you were young right?

B: I did. Not a whole lot actually but I did date a couple of guys. Even my freshman year of college I dated a guy for a while, very nice guy. There was 3:00always not quite the connection that I felt with other women and...I'm thinking whether I should segue into the whole friendship with Leroy and going to--maybe I will.

G: Yeah. [laughter]

B: So, it was really when I was at Virginia Tech that--my sophomore year, my best friend in freshman year was another architecture student. Leroy was my very best friend. We were very close. A lot of people thought that we were dating, but we were not. We were just really good friends. Then quarter, the sophomore 4:00year, he came out to me and invited me to go to a talk his boyfriend was giving. He was dating the president of the Gay Student Alliance at the time, and he was gonna be on a panel talking to a human sexuality class. I went to go see Leroy's boyfriend talk to this class. It was one of these big lecture halls, like a hundred students or whatever and three gay men on this panel sitting down in front of the room. It was great just listening to their interaction with the class and them being honest and open about who they were and telling their story. But, the one thing that I felt like was missing was the fact that all three of them were men, and they were missing the women's perspective. I thought 5:00to myself that next time they do one of these classes I am gonna be there to present the lesbian side of the story. Keep in mind I had not at this point come out, so that was another step in my journey. Even that day even though I had that realization, and I was there with my best friend, Leroy, I didn't say a word Leroy about it then. But I think it was a few weeks later that I did and sure enough next time one of those classes came up I was indeed on the panel, being one of the people sharing my story.

G: So cool and so powerful.

B: It's an interesting thing for me to have chosen to do because I am not 6:00somebody who craves the spotlight. I shy away from it as much as possible. It's a little odd that I'm even doing this interview. But I think that I really saw how important that was and how meaningful it could be. That panel that I went to had an effect on my life, and if I could help ease the way for just one other gay or lesbian student that would be worth the fear of getting up in front a crowd of people and talking. Which honestly for me is like a phobia, a public speaking phobia. I'm a little better now than I was then but talking in front of any class was hard for me, you know, reading a book report or something in front of class, and yet I was going into this classes in Virginia in the [19]70s where people were not necessarily supportive of gay and lesbian students and I was 7:00gettin' up there and sayin' this is who I am, this is my story. It was an amazing, powerful thing for me, very empowering for me, and I definitely felt like I was doing a good thing for other people. The feedback that we got from the students that were in the class, that would come up to us afterwards or call a week later and say, Hey I went to this class and now I- you know... turns out I'm gay too. We had those experiences all the time and it was--or somebody would come up and say, My brother came out last year, and I haven't known how to talk to him about it and this has really helped me. I don't even know most of the people what influence that may have had that we were all willing to come and 8:00talk like that. Kids that were in those classes, that are parents now, and their kids come out that that's something people connect with and remember. It's something I'm proud of having been a part of.

G: I'm also very proud of you... can you talk about Denim Day?

B: So yeah, Denim Day was a pretty significant event--well the whole week was significant really. It was Gay Awareness Week, it was not Gay Pride Week. We weren't there yet. [laughter] I think that the first step that anyone needs to take towards having any kind of equal rights is just for people to be aware that you even exist, and we were pretty much an invisible minority, at that point, 9:00particularly at Virginia Tech or other places similar. Outside of New York or San Francisco there wasn't a lot of visibility for LGBTQ folks. We didn't even have all of those letters then. Like I said, even the phrase gay pride, we weren't quite there yet it was just the making people aware that we even existed was that first step. So we planned this whole week, and kind of the centerpiece of the week was Denim Day. It was something that had been done in other places so it wasn't like our idea, but I don't know that it had been--I don't think it had--pretty sure it had never been done in the state of Virginia or anywhere within a huge radius. The whole idea was on Wednesday you should wear denim to 10:00show your support for gay rights, and the concept went over most people's heads, which was pretty interesting. It ended up that on Denim Day practically no one wore denim, and denim was pretty much the uniform for all college students. So, that was really the whole idea was to make people, something that would come so naturally to everyone, just slipping on a pair of jeans in the morning, that they had to stop and think twice about whether that was something that they 11:00wanted to do that day--to have this fear that people would think they supported gay rights if they just were themselves and dressed the way they always dressed. There's multiple levels there of what that's doing because first of all, why should anyone be afraid of showing support for gay rights? It doesn't necessarily mean you're gay expect that is what everyone would think.

[a cat hits Brown in the face with its tail]

[laughter]

G: That's what people were thinking that if you support gay rights it could only be--

B: So, it was basically the whole point was to make people have to stop and think twice about doing something that was just as natural to them as slipping on a pair of jeans in the morning and having that fear that if you did that thing that came perfectly natural to you that people would have a negative opinion of you. They would think that you were supporting gay rights. So, then 12:00there's that level too of just the whole idea of supporting gay rights is somehow a bad thing. That people would automatically think that you were gay, which was even worse, but these are all things that would be running through people's minds, and this is what caused most everybody at Virginia Tech to come dressed in khakis, and corduroys, anything but denim. People totally avoided denim, and people got really mad and people wrote tons of letters to the editor, and they were all like, why did you pick this? You shoulda realized that this is what everyone wore. They were like, yeah that's kinda the point. [laughter]

G: What was the mood like on the day on campus.

B: It was interesting. Naturally, I was wearing denim. Which for me... I think for some folks--for some other people that were in the Gay Student Alliance even--that that was a huge step to be that open on Denim Day to be wearing denim. Some people came decked out totally you know, denim jackets, denim shirt, denim jeans, the whole every piece of denim that they had, and you know proudly displaying that and I certainly wore denim and was happy to be wearing denim. For me actually at the time, I had a little lesbian symbol necklace that I wore every day. I guess a lot of people it probably wouldn't have registered with 14:00them, but once I came out, I was always very out, and so for me, the wearing denim on Denim Day was not a big deal. I also personally didn't really get a whole lot of sense-- I know other students reported being, you know, getting some negative feedback from some students who saw them wearing denim-- the negative kinda reactions you might expect from people who were not accustomed to such things. [laughter] They were not as supportive of gay rights as we would have liked them to be. I didn't really get a sense of that personally directed toward me which was nice, but it definitely did register that, yeah, as 15:00expected, people were pretty dressed up that day.

G: Was there anyone who surprised you with what you saw them wear that day?

B: Not that I really remember, no.

G: Okay, gotta keep going on the list...

B: It was also interesting the night before going out and we-- there had already been things in the paper about it. The night before, we were out slipping leaflets under peoples' doors in the dorms and everything, really making sure everybody knew about it and I think that's part of why it was as effective as it was, everybody definitely knew, and most people had some kind of reaction.

G: What do you think would happen if they tried to do a denim day in 2019?

B: Well, I think we're about to find out. [laughter]

G: What's your guess? What will the campus look like?

B: I think it will be much more denim than we saw that day, certainly.

[cut]

G: Okay. So, we were talking about... What do you think denim day 2019 will look like?

B: I think it will definitely look very different.

[The cat leaps on top of the bookcase in the background.]

B: I mean we have come a long way...

[Brown glances sideways at the cat atop the bookcase.]

[laughter]

G: She's only adding to it.

[laughter]

[cut]

B: Well, I think it definitely will definitely look a lot different than it did forty years ago. I would hope that we would see significantly more denim and-- both casual denim because that's what everybody was gonna wear and they're just not even paying attention and don't feel as compelled to have a negative 17:00response, [the cat climbs into Brown's lap] and a lot more denim that is in support. Certainly, we have come a long way in forty years I'm not naïve enough to think there won't be somebody, lots of folks, that still would not be that supportive and may be inclined to not wear denim. Better than it was. And partly because of the efforts of everyone through the years to raise awareness. We've come a long way.

G: Maybe now, supporting gay rights will be as natural for most people as putting on jeans.

B: That would be wonderful.

[cut]

G: When you look back on your time in the Gay Student Alliance at Virginia Tech, 18:00do you do so fondly or are there times you'd prefer to forget.

B: Oh, I definitely look back on that fondly. I think the experience of coming out for anyone, you kinda find your tribe. You find the people that you can really connect with and relate to and you know sometimes that's a really new experience on a lot of levels for me that was a new experience because I was connecting with other people as my more authentic self, myself that prior to that, I didn't even know that well. Then you meet all these other folks, and I think especially forty years ago in Virginia, the people that I met through the 19:00Gay Student Alliance, there is a certain mindset of people who were the kind of people who would come out in Virginia in the [19]70s. It wasn't an easy path, it's easier now and I'm so happy that it's easier now, but there's a bond that we have from... kind of... the battle scars, people who have been to war together. Or just, like I said, just the mindset to be the kind of people who were that self-aware and self-assured to come out in those times. It's a special kind of people and we share a special bond and when I look back on those years and the things that we were able to pull off together, that we pulled off Denim Day, and that we spoke to all those classes. We were scared every time we talked to those classes, all of us were, and we were overjoyed when we finished and 20:00knew that it had gone really well, so it's something I'm proud of having been a part of and I definitely look back fondly on those years.

G: Do you keep in touch with people from those times?

B: There are some people that I have kept in touch with, and some people that I've just recently been reconnecting with because of the planning of the forty-year anniversary. I'm really looking forward to some of the people I will connect with at the events that are about to happen at Virginia Tech for the anniversary, people that I haven't seen in years that I love. It's gonna be great.

[cut]

G: Do you think college age Sueann could have imagined were you are now?

B: Not at all, I mean yes and no. There are certain things that I definitely not have imagined specifically in terms of gay rights. I would not have thought that we would have the right to marry. That's not a thing I ever thought was gonna happen in my lifetime. That's a pretty amazing thing.

G: And you get to be out at work.

B: Totally out at work, although like I said, I always was and I've asked myself this question, why is it that I always was so out. When you balance that out 22:00with being someone who doesn't crave the spotlight and doesn't like to call attention to myself really, and yet I always felt compelled to be very out. That was important and I think part of it relates to one of the things that I used to always say in the introduction when we would do those panel discussions. One of the things I always said was, I'm here because I don't want to be. That I don't want for this one aspect of my life to considered so abhorrent to so many people, and so weird and different, that it's something that they need somebody to come in and talk on a panel about this strange thing that nobody really understands. I think that society has changed over time where it is much less of 23:00an issue, and I've seen that in being always very out all through my life that now it's like nobody even gives it a second thought. I always was out at work, but now where I work, I march with my contingent of co-workers in the annual gay pride parade. In my [National] Park Service uniform, with my rainbow boa, and it is an amazing and wonderful thing.

G: In 2016, the first year that we had the [National] Park Service in the pride parade here in Seattle, and I was so happy because you were so happy. [laughter]

B: I was phenomenally happy! [laughter] Yeah.

G: I think you said that you never thought that you would get to do that.

B: Yeah. [nods]

[end of video interview]

Transcribed by: John R. Legg April 26, 2019

Audit edit by: L. T. Wilkerson June 18, 2019

Final edit by: Anthony Wright de Hernandez June 25, 2019