Oral History with Susan Manero, April 5, 2019 (Ms2019-001)

Ms2019-001

Narrator: Susan Manero

Interviewer: Joe Forte

Date of Interview: April 5, 2019

Transcribed by: Kathryn Walters, July 10, 2019

Audit-Edited by: Clay Adkins, September 5th, 2019

Final Edited by: Anthony Wright, July 18, 2022

Joe Forte:My name is Joe Forte, and I will be the interviewer for this recording of an oral history narration. We are recording in Newman Library on April 5, 2019 at 5:17pm. The narrator today is Sue Manero. Welcome, Sue, would you introduce yourself briefly.

Susan Manero:My name is Susan Manero. I was born on October 13, 1959 in Worcester, Massachusetts is where I was born and raised. When I was looking for colleges, I had an interest in animal science, and I was an equestrian at the time, so I was looking for someplace away from Massachusetts. Being the youngest child of a family of four, I wanted to go and experience a little bit more of the world. I was looking for a school where I could continue to ride horses and 1:00learn a little bit more about animal science and go into pre-veterinarian. I ended up coming across a small, all women's school in Virginia called Southern Seminary. It was a two-year school, and it was just an all-women's school. It wasn't like a seminary, like sisters, or nuns, anything like that. Down to Southern Seminary I go, and I can remember being dropped off at 17 years old by my parents in this small little town in Virginia. I don't quite know what I was thinking, leaving Massachusetts, and going South, but I guess maybe I thought it was a different way of life which it was. I get dropped off in this little, small town, don't know a soul. School starts and women start coming in. Kind of start to form these relationships. Growing up I always felt that there was a little bit of difference in me. Not really being attracted to boys growing up. I 2:00was a tomboy, played football, was always out, but never really had that attraction on the intimate level, so this was something that was always in the back of my head. Down at Southern Seminary I formed really wonderful friendships, and one of the first few days this woman walked into my dorm room and said, hey, you're in my dorm room. I used to live here, and I was like, oh really. My name's Sue. And she stopped and went, oh my god. Where are you from? You don't have a Southern accent, and I said, oh, I'm from Worcester, Massachusetts. She went, ah, I'm from Fitchburg, Massachusetts, which is literally 30 minutes north of Worcester. We instantly hit it off and became friends and other relationships were formed. During that time, my friend, 3:00Helene, and I would have these conversations about our sexuality, and how it was just a little different. Not quite sure what direction we wanted to go in because that was not something really that was discussed much back in 1977. During this time at Southern Seminary I developed a very close friendship with another woman, and as time went on the relationship became a little bit more intense, and boom. Kiss happened. I was like, woah. What the heck was that? We started this relationship, this woman and I, but we were totally in the closet. Totally secretive. Could not even talk about it to my best friend, Helene, who was going through her own questioning of sexuality. There were rumors going 4:00around campus. Keep in mind, it was a very small college, and it was only a two-year college. Someone had seen us kissing, so the rumors flew. I had to quickly just, as best as we could, no that never happened. They don't know what they're talking about. That never really took place. This woman I was with was like, you cannot tell anyone that we are having a relationship, because I think on some level herself, she didn't know what direction she was going in. Southern Sem. was not a challenging school for me academically which was not a good thing for a 17, 18 year old young adult to be bored academically. Helene was like, I'm going to Virginia Tech, so why don't you come down and check out the campus. So 5:00down I came to Virginia Tech, and the second I got on campus I was like, this is the place for me, definitely. Bigger, a lot of activity, just loved the location, the mountains. There was a group of us. Three of them had graduated from Southern Seminary 'cause it was a two year school, and I transferred out. The four of us moved down to Blacksburg, and we all lived in an apartment together. It was Helene, another woman, and my partner, at the time, and myself. My partner and I shared a bedroom together, naturally, and we were having this relationship while living with the other two women. Helene all of a sudden started hanging out with these two gay gentlemen downstairs and all of a sudden 6:00joined this Gay Student Alliance [G.S.A.]. I'm going, crap, she's like living what I want to live, but I can't say anything because I'm in this relationship with this woman who's like, you can't say anything. Helene would come home from these meetings and be so excited, and I met this great group of people, and, oh my god. We're doing this, and we're doing that. She would be like, Sukie, that was the nickname that I had, Sukie. She would present the question to all of us over dinner, could any of you have a relationship with a woman, you think? The other two women were like, no. I was like, yeah, I guess I could. Helene was like, what? I was like, yeah, I could never say no. I mean anything's possible I guess. I just kind of let it go at that because again, here's Helene coming out. 7:00I'm living the gay lifestyle with this other woman. I can't say anything, and it was so difficult. I was living just this like very secluded world. It was awkward. So all of a sudden Helene starts talking about, there's gonna be this Denim Day on the campus of Virginia Tech. If you support gay rights you wear denim. I was like, yeah, OK. I'm in. I'm game, absolutely. Why wouldn't I. So the day came, and I wear my jeans. I was a finance major. Full day, a Wednesday, full day of classes like 9-4. I just had classes through the day. My partner at the time, I'm like, You're gonna wear denim today, right. You gonna wear your 8:00jeans. She was like, no, I'm not. I was like, what are you talking about? How can you not wear denim? We're in a relationship together. This makes no sense to me. Tucked that in the back of my head and come to campus, and I'm looking around, and I'm going, holy crap. There's like no one wearing jeans. I was scared shitless. It was like, oh my god. This is not good. Little fearful of our safety for those of us who are out there. You could count the number of people out there that had jeans on that day. I would go to class after class after class and there would be no one wearing jeans. I could remember just like coming 9:00across the Drillfield, and I saw Helene, and I was like, oh my god. Helene, what the heck's going on. I could not wrap my head around the fact that no one was wearing jeans that day on a campus that that was the dress code. Any college campus that was the dress code. I can remember going up the stairs to McBryde, and it was like my last class. I'm like just get me through this day, and just walking in that classroom, and all eyes just turn and just watch me walk in the room. I was just like, phew, boy. I just kind of went to the back of the room and sat down and was just like get me through this class, get me through this class. Get me through this day and keep me safe. There would be comments and derogatory comments towards gay women and men. I would just ignore them. At the 10:00end of the day when we all came together, there was a bond that was formed from that day with this group of people. Nancy Kelly was just like a foundation to me, and Helene was a foundation to me. Shortly after that I ended the relationship with my partner because I couldn't be with someone that couldn't at least acknowledge gay rights and be kind of living that lifestyle, so I was like, OK. We're done. I can remember that day so vividly. I got in my car, and I headed out to the mountains because I needed to come to terms with myself, OK, 11:00so what's the deal? Where are you in your life. 'Cause Nancy and Helene would be like, are you sure you're not gay? No. They'd be like, come on. No. So this day I went, took a ride into the mountains and did some soul searching, and I can remember the moment I kind of just went, ha, I'm gay. Wow. It was so freeing that it brought me to tears. I came back into town, and the first place I went was to Helene's house. I said, Helene I gotta talk to you. She's like, yeah, Suk, what's up? I said, remember all those rumors and all those stories people used to say about me and this other woman. She was like, yeah. I said, well, 12:00they were true, and she was like, what? What? What? It was the funniest thing 'cause she had a pie on the counter, and she goes, here, have a piece of pie. She just didn't know how to react to the fact that, oh my god. She witnessed it but didn't have the reality of it until I said, guess what? It was all true, and I'm gay.

F:Yeah.

M:We sat and talked and laughed and hugged and cried. Then the next person's house I went to was Nancy Kelly and went, knocked on her door, and stood out there, and I said, Nancy, I gotta tell you. I'm gay. She was like, no, really? Well it's about time, and gave me a big hug. It was one of the most freeing moments of my life because I finally was able to come to terms and put together 13:00all those feelings I was having inside of me, and Denim Day was pretty much the catalyst for that change in my life. That's my story of how I came to [Virginia] Tech.

F:Yeah, it's a great one. So you weren't just protecting the secret of your partner. You were still struggling with it yourself?

M:Absolutely.

F:Yeah.

M:Absolutely. My family did not know. I didn't come out to my family for many, many years later. Absolutely struggling with that decision of where am I in my sexuality. So from that moment I had this instant family here at [Virginia] Tech, and we were a community. Men and women. We would have gatherings. We 14:00wouldn't go home for Thanksgiving. We'd stay here and have our family Thanksgivings here as a community. We had great times. We'd go hiking. We'd have parties. The big thing - Friday night, Saturday night. Late, get ready, go up to The Park, the gay bar in Roanoke and go dancing and just have a great time. It was joyous for the community, but we had to be closeted. We had to be very secretive about our community because of the reaction of the town and the campus to Denim Day. That was the time - shortly thereafter, Jerry Falwell and Anita Bryant and that whole homophobic movement down here.

M:It was just like, well we don't really care. We've got our community, and 15:00we're gonna be with each other and be family with each other. It was a good time. Through the darkness there was always light, and that light was the community that was created.

F:Yeah. So you knew Nancy and some members of the G.S.A. through Helene.

M:I did. Correct.

F:You felt like they were your friends?

M:They were my family.

F:No, but I mean before.

M:Before they were my friends.

F:Yeah.

M:Yes, absolutely. After that we had a women's instrumental flag football team, and a lot of the women in the community were on that team, and we used to have a blast. We were such good athletes as well that people on campus were like, woah, let's go watch that game, 'cause they were really good games. Then through that, 16:00all of a sudden there was this poster up, are you woman enough to play rugby? So some of the community started playing rugby, and we had this phenomenal, great rugby team. We not only had like a social end, we also had a little bit of an athletic connection there through the first women's rugby team on Virginia Tech which was created in 1979 as well. Lot of comradery. We had a lot of fun. We got to do a lot of traveling and meet other women rugby teams. We'd be like, think she's gay? You couldn't just go up and say, hey. Once again, we were all in our communities, closeted to the rest of the community. One time a good friend of mine from Worcester ended up coming to [Virginia] Tech, and I saw her on campus, and I was like, oh my god. What are you doing here? She transferred in, and 17:00she's like, are there any athletic teams, intramural teams or stuff like that? I said, oh well, come play rugby. It's great. We have a lot of fun. The women are really fun, so she came on to the rugby team. She's like, oh my god. You guys are crazy. You're so funny, and she would just have such a great time with us. I was like, Helene, I've got to tell her that pretty much all of us on the team are gay because she's not, and I don't want her to freak out and think, what the heck have you gotten me into? So I can remember sitting her down and saying, this is the deal. Pretty much the whole team's gay. She was like, everybody? I was like, yup, everybody. She's like, alright. It just didn't really faze her and was never threatened by any of the women being gay on the team. There was never that stigma of like, don't make any passes at me. I'm not gay, type thing.

F:Yeah.

M:We had this really close-knit community, and as I went through [19]79, [19]80, [19]81, graduated in [19]82, the community became bigger, and our family became bigger as we got to know more gay people in the community. When Nancy and Helene graduated, they went up to Roanoke and formed First Friday. So, I would then start partaking in some of the First Friday events. The First Friday of every month there would be a social or a dance. They'd have retreats, and it was a beautiful way to kind of keep carrying on this family-- this instant family that was created here at Virginia Tech.

F:Yeah.

M:So.

F:Did you stay around at all after you graduated?

M:I did. I graduated in [19]82. I stayed for another year, and I was working in the finance world, the insurance industry. Still a very male dominated industry to this day, but back in 1983 in Virginia it was extremely male dominated. My father had a family business - his own insurance agency. I got the phone call, so I'm retiring. Come on home. I was like, [Sue sighs] I really don't wanna go home. I really don't wanna do this, but at that given point in my life I was like, beating my head against the wall, trying to get somewhere in the finance world.

M:My boss at the time-- I worked for Life of Georgia, and my boss called me in, 20:00and he goes, what are you doing, a single woman living down here, down South. You should either be married with babies or at home with your parents. I was like, OK, yeah, you know what? You're right, and I'm gonna go home, and I'm gonna run my own business and be more successful than you could ever imagine your own self being. I made the transition, but I have got to tell you. When I left Blacksburg my heels were dug in. Sobbing all the way home because here I am a gay women with this beautiful community and support system going home to nothing. I didn't know any gay people up in Worcester, Mass. Sure, there's P town [Provincetown, Massachusetts], North Hampton, Boston, but I got home, and I 21:00felt stripped, and so alone, and so isolated. I can remember just sitting there, and my family going, why are you so upset? What's wrong? I'm just like, I miss my friends. I miss my friends. 'Cause I hadn't come out, and I couldn't come out. Thank God, I can remember good friends of the family were having a Fourth of July party, and my parents said, come to the Fourth of July party. You'll feel better. I can remember in the back of my head, this friends of the family had a daughter, and people would say, oh yeah, Donna, yeah. She's a little different. I remember, oh people used to say Donna's a little different, ha. So 22:00yeah, I'll go to the party. Off to the party I go. Fourth of July and I'm like, where's Donna? She's over in her own apartment. I say, OK. I'm gonna go say hello. I go in, she's like, oh my god. Sue Manero. How are you? Look at you all grown up. I say, hi. I'm back from Virginia, and I'm gay, and I know you're gay too, and I need a community. And she just kind of was like - She wasn't out to her family.

F:Yeah.

M:[Laughter] She was just like, OK. Alright. How did you know I was gay. I'm like, come on. I am. The similarities are there, so I just kind of took the chances that you are. From that moment she introduced to some people that she was friends with. So there was a little bit more community up there, and a 23:00little bit more, and a little bit more, and that community grew, but it never replaced, and to this day, has still not replaced the community that I had here in Blacksburg and in Roanoke. That's how deep our bonds are with the women and the men here in this community.

F:Did you keep contact with those people?

M:Yes. I kept contact with Helene 'cause she had family in Fitchburg. I kept contact with a few other women that were part of the community. Nancy, I would kind of keep track of through Helene. Some friends moved up to Richmond, Virginia, so I would go visit them on occasion. Some of the people I haven't seen for 40 years and just kind of reconnected now, and that bond it's just like 24:00[Sue snaps fingers] right where we left off.

F:Yeah.

M:We picked up. Going home-- I went home to a family business and my family where I was not comfortable coming out. I had a gay male friend, John. He was my cover. He was my boyfriend. He was gay. I was gay, but he was my boyfriend. I was his girlfriend. It worked. No questions asked. Because the worst thing was like going home, and they're like, oh you dating anyone? When are you getting married? When are you gonna have kids? Like the typical, and it was like, oh for God's sake, stop. So that cover just stopped all of that. One of my brothers was gay as well, and he did not come out until, unfortunately, he contracted AIDS. Unfortunately, he had to come out to my parents saying, I'm a gay man, and I'm 25:00H.I.V. positive which was like, [Susan sighs heavily]. My own brother. We had this relationship, and neither one of us ever came out to our parents. He did through his sickness. I still did not for many many years later. When he passed my parents couldn't even say that he died of AIDS because of the stigma.

F:Yeah.

M:It was in [19]86 is when he passed, so it was in the height of all the, this is God's answer to the gay men and then killing off the gay men and Jerry Falwell and this and that. It was a tough time. It was a dark time. Again, 26:00missing that community of people that I had 'cause I was still into this new community of developing people and relationships with people.

[Camera malfunction, break in video]

F:Your story about your brother passing and coming out to your parents because of contracting AIDS and getting sick - was the way your parents reacted to that news and handled his passing - you said they couldn't say that he had AIDS - was that something that served to keep you in the closet to them even longer. Like did you take a cue from that.

M:I think it did. Don't get me wrong - loving, loving, loving parents.

F:Yeah.

M:When they found out it was like, OK, we're gonna beat this. Like it was a negative because obviously their son was sick, but they were never negative towards his lifestyle. Let me say like, why are you gay? Why did you do that? No, you're not. So they accepted that lifestyle. They accepted his partner at the time. Instant [Sue snaps fingers] son-in-law, like boom. But watching the interaction, yes. It did make me take a step back at that time. I did come out to my sister a few years later, and she kinda already knew. It was one of those things - she didn't really ask, but she knew.

F:Yeah.

M:Watching just that whole interaction did make me take a step back, but then I 28:00also jumped into the, OK. Now I've got to fight for AIDS, so it was kind of like boom. AIDS action committee, fundraising, rallies, and wearing pins. My family members, my cousins, my aunts, and uncles - I didn't hide that from them. They didn't ask why I was doing all this because all they knew was my brother had passed from cancer of the brain, not AIDS. Kind of just threw me into that, so I was almost like not really out, but kinda sorta because I was fighting for something that I felt really strongly in. Then, also, my father had a family business, so it wasn't cool to say like, yeah, I'm gay, and I'm working in the 29:00family business, so I also had to kind of protect that business image because I was in an extremely male dominated field of insurance, so that also came into consideration. Over the years, developed relationships with women, and I entered into partnerships with women, and I was in a partnership - a very long partnership and through that, people would just start saying, oh are you and Stephanie married? It wasn't legal yet, but are you married? No. We had been together for five years, seven years, eight years, ten years, thirteen years, fourteen years, so then the conversation started opening up. Through that opening of conversation I was OK to start saying, yes, she's my partner. Didn't 30:00broadcast it, but yes she's my partner. Family members would acknowledge that, and when we went through a rough time and the relationship ended the support was there. I was part of her family. She was part of my family and support was there through that. Then little by little I would start stepping out into the business world, and some people couldn't accept it. They didn't know how to accept it, but I didn't really give them the opportunity to think otherwise because then at that given moment, you're like, well, this is who I am. Take it or leave it, and it doesn't change the person that I am. I still do things the same way I've always done it. I just happen to be gay. Some people accepted it. Some people 31:00didn't. I was on an advisory council in the town that I live in now, Princeton, Massachusetts. Oversaw-- Well there's a state reservation in the town called Wachusett Mountain, and I was on this advisory council, and at the time there was this big decision. There's a ski area on one side of this state reservation and the rest of it's hiking trails. Ski area wanted to expand, and I opposed it. I was elected by town officials to represent the town of Princeton for this state reservation and through this opposition there were some people in town that supported the ski area. They were very affluent people in town, and they all wrote letters to the select board saying, we don't want Sue Manero as our 32:00representative because her lifestyle does not reflect ours. This was in 1992, and the select board would not let me see the letters, but I did ask for the names because I wanted to know who these people were in town that thought because of my lifestyle, I didn't represent them well enough.

F:Yeah.

M:I would get beer bottles thrown on my driveway, shattered. My house was paintballed. People would drive by, lesbian! Like, really? Come on. So there was that level of harassment, so when those things happen you always take a little step back. You always pull it back in again.

F:The selection committee though supported you?

M:Yes, absolutely. I remained on that advisory position for thirteen years after that, absolutely. But to hear the fact that just because our views were a little different they used my lifestyle as the-

F:Yeah.

M:-the catalyst and not the real story. I feel like-- it brings me back to Denim Day because over the years, from 1979 to current day, I have told the story of Denim Day countless times to friends and family and always come back to that moment because what it did for me was it was something that was so important, that challenged so many people that it made a huge difference in the way I did 34:00things in my life moving forward. It gave me the courage to stand up for those things that I believed in because I hoped that in days ahead, it made a difference for future generations. It made a difference for the LGBTQ+ people on campus today. It made a difference.

F:Personally, you've talked about how it made a difference for you because it forced you to confront your identity- but making a difference for the community in general. Could you talk a little bit more about how it succeeded in that arena?

M:Back in 1979, after we did it, the university received 25,000 letters in opposition. That's crazy. I was like, can never have it again. Don't ever do it again. Now, here, today was the 40th anniversary and Denim Day do-over, and little bit of me was nervous. There was a little bit like, someone's gonna oppose this again. We're gonna get some heckling or something somewhere, and there was none. It was total acceptance, and the group of people that were there was mind blowing. The emotions of being back on campus 40 years later and seeing 36:00the acknowledgment of the core group has been like, woah, and then tears. Today, after one of the photographs, was on the stairs, I turned around, looked behind me, and it was just like, woah. Like, wow. Look at all these people, and I think Nancy said, where were you 40 years ago? Kinda like, this is amazing. I feel that now people can walk on this campus and hopefully not be harassed and tormented as we were back in those days. Where I would worry about my gay male friends getting the crap beaten out of them, or gay women worried about being 37:00raped because we haven't been with the right man. I would hope- I'm not naïve because I know that probably still exists, but I would hope it's a safer and more educated and enlightened society that is out here on campus. There's a center, an LGBTQ+ center. Like, wow. That's amazing. We woulda all just been camped out there all the time if we had something like that. Virginia Tech's come a long way.

F:Yeah, and the president was out there standing with everyone on those stairs.

M:I saw that.

F:That's a huge difference.

M:I saw that. I saw that, and I was like, OK. Walk the walk. Talk the talk. 38:00Don't just show up in a picture, and I think that reaction comes from 40 years ago.

F:Yeah.

M:But moving forward from today for future generations, and it will change and go forward - that it makes it an easier place. I don't want anyone to have to go through what we went through 40 years ago in that transition. You know conversion therapy still exists. Still exists back home and outside of Boston. That's a scary thought.

F:Yeah.

M:In talking to my friends in the community that I live in, Princeton, in light of this current day administration, we're like, oh crap. We've got to pull the pins out again, and fight that fight again because we don't want our rights taken away. We would tell stories of, oh yeah, I remember that march, and that, 39:00doing this. People like, oh come on. It's not that bad. Then you see an article, teenage boy wants to commit suicide because his parents want him to go to conversion therapy outside of Worcester, Massachusetts in 2018. We've come a long way, but we've got a long way to go. Coming here on campus and seeing how we were honored and welcomed, I'm grateful, and I'm humbled by the process.

F:Had you been back at all?

M:I had. I had been back, I want to say a year after the shooting took place on campus. I wanted to reconnect with campus.

M:I'm a Hokie and always have been and never left with a negative taste in my 40:00mouth towards Virginia Tech. My friends back home would tease me, still do, do you have anything else besides Virginia Tech wardrobe? Do you wear anything else? If I'm watching the Hokie football game just don't come near me. They know that. They're like, yeah, don't go talk to Sue right now. She's watching the football game. Always connected. Proud to be a Virginia Tech graduate. Proud to be a Hokie. Proud to be a gay Hokie. I like to carry that forward.

F:Had you always been a sports fan or athletic?

M:Yes.

F:So that's not something that just developed from the opportunity of the rugby.

M:No, avid athlete, skier, I was an equestrian, downhill skier. I'm a runner. 41:00That was just another avenue for us to connect as a community. As a kid I couldn't play football on the football team. I wasn't allowed. I couldn't play baseball. I could play the women's sports. Field hockey. Wear a skirt. No way. Basketball. No. The athletic opportunities back then were limited for me because my passions were more in that type of field. The football. Soccer was not even out then for us as an athletic event. I think if soccer had been around I would have really liked the game, but rugby - it was pretty cool. Elegant violence. [Laughter]. And again, it was just that comradery that brought us together as a community.

F:Yeah. Did you keep some component of that? Did you remain active in sports?

M:Yes, I'm a runner. I hike. I trail run. I ski. I've never really cut back on anything like that. I never really went on to a team event. I was on a ski racing team - different. But nothing like a women's softball team or another women's rugby team, but supportive. I follow the Virginia Tech women's rugby team on Instagram and kinda do a few posts when they post. Kind of stay connected with that 'cause I feel like we were the core group, and we're proud of that.

F:Yeah.

M:So it kind of goes hand in hand.

F:And how to do they--

M:I haven't heard back. I know they have a big tournament this weekend. They 43:00would respond to my posts like, woah, thanks for following us, and like, go lady ruggers, and like give me the thumbs up or the smile, wooo.

F:Yeah. Do you still run your business?

M:I do. I have my own insurance agency. I broke off from the family business and went out on my own, and I've been very successful. I've been blessed - very successful business. Pretty much everyone knows I'm a gay woman business owner, and you still get hit with some of those walls with being in a male dominated field, but you align yourself with the right businesspeople and those are other strong and like-minded women. We kind of network together and build friendships 44:00and relationships with each other and networks into different fields besides just the financial end.

F:Informal or formalized?

M:Informal. We support each other. For example, I have a friend, she's a chef, great chef. I will support and talk up her business and say, oh go check this out. She's amazing. I have another friend - she's a restaurant owner and her daughter did a documentary called A Fine Line. It's about women chefs in the culinary world - talk about a male dominated industry. So there are those parallels of opportunities that we share with each other and help empower other young women to follow their dreams.

F:Was that an evolution that took a while to develop that cooperative strategy?

M:I don't think so. I have been around in the woman business world where almost some women were cutthroat towards each other, and I was like, what are you doing? We're trying to help each other out here.

F:Yeah.

M:I think it was more of their insecurities, so again, it's finding like-mind, like-hearted people and aligning yourself with them. When you do that, the power and the energy that is created behind that movement is amazing. It really is amazing, and that translates down to the younger generation where they're like role models for them to look up to and say, she did it. I can do it. That's I 46:00think, moving forward, what is really important is-- single gay business owner. Successful. 30 years. Yeah.

F:She can do it. I can do it. Is that a part of what G.S.A. accomplished with Denim Day?

M:I would hope so. I would hope that G.S.A. and Denim Day was the catalyst that started the change on this campus. It might have taken 20 years or 15 years after the fact, after the dust settled. And everyone slowly started to come together maybe five, six, seven years after, and say, OK, let's rebuild this, 47:00and let's see where we can go from here. So yes, I think that Nancy and her brainstorm of Denim Day was the catalyst for change. We probably didn't see it at that given moment.

F:Yeah.

M:Right? But, absolutely.

F:Well that seems to me like a pretty good stopping point unless there's something else you really wanna say.

M:Pretty much it. Pretty much covered everything.

F:That was terrific, thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking to you.

M:Thank you, my pleasure. Anything to add to the history of the campus.

F:Yeah, great.

M:People to look at and go, wow. OK, wow. I don't feel so bad. They went through the same thing.

F:Well you were an ideal narrator.

M:Thank you. [Laughter] We good? We done?

F:Yeah.

M:Okay. Awesome.

[End of interview]